CL: Angilsa and negative ranks?

In article <1g5a2i4.1g6jici1jb4yogN%pj@ag.ixserve.org>,
pj.RemoveThis@ag.ixserve.org (Pernille Jensen) wrote:

 > Austlyn <abc.RemoveThis@defg.com> wrote:
 >
  > > I never trained any Darkus and I only had 30 Histia to start with, so will
  > > I have to train 75 Darkus and 100 Histia just to get back up to where I
  > > started with them? > Maybe this is some kind of bug previously unknown
  > > because nobody was dumb enough to do this?
 >
 > I'd only call it a bug if you had *not* gone into negative ranks. Did
 > you expect to get the double Regia for free?
 >
 > Actually you should consider yourself lucky. With negative hit points,
 > you could just as well have been dead. :D
 >
 >
 > - Pernille

I just want to know if this is what happened and just how much training
I'll need to get back to what I had. I've spent the last year and a half
training with Angilsa so it looks like I've got that much more time
before I can even hunt again. =)

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

Austlyn <abc RemoveThis @defg.com> wrote in message news:<abc-81DDE1.12420802122003 RemoveThis @nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
 > I just want to know if this is what happened and just how much training
 > I'll need to get back to what I had. I've spent the last year and a half
 > training with Angilsa so it looks like I've got that much more time
 > before I can even hunt again. =)
 >
 > :Austlyn:

When you first arrive in exile, you already have some health &
abilities even with zero ranks of training; moreover some of these
vary by race. It seems reasonable to me that Anglisa would subtract
from these, effectively making you have "negative ranks".

Whether you can actually have negative abilities is a different
question. It has been said that some people (e.g. healers with little
or no Bodrus) weilding an oak basher will see their balance decrease
while holding it. That would be negative regia.

On the other hand, my experiments seem to indicate that, even if you
have "negative" darkus, you will still do a minimum amount of damage,
which is approximately 1/20th of what it takes to knock down a kudzu
plant.

I have no idea whether or not health has a similar minimum override.
But here's a way you can find out. Time how long it takes for you to
troilus from the red-yellow transition to full health. Then train
something that changes your histia without affecting your troilus.
Time again. If the number doesn't change, that would imply an minimum
override.

Of course that doesn't tell you how far below the minimum you actually
are. One way to answer that is, assuming you know exactly what you've
trained, to use Azriel's figures to compute your histia-equivalent
ranks, and compare that to the "base histia" (histia-equivalent ranks
of the health you started with) of your race. Alas, you're in no
position to figure out your base histia, and while I have an estimate
for myself, and I know of no published numbers for races in general.
I don't even know whether or not there is some initial individual
variation.

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

In article <900f09e.0312041023.4bf6cec0.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
taryncl.DeleteThis@attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:

 > Austlyn <abc.DeleteThis@defg.com> wrote in message
 > news:<abc-81DDE1.12420802122003.DeleteThis@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
  > > I just want to know if this is what happened and just how much training
  > > I'll need to get back to what I had. I've spent the last year and a half
  > > training with Angilsa so it looks like I've got that much more time
  > > before I can even hunt again. =)
  > >
  > > :Austlyn:
 >
 > When you first arrive in exile, you already have some health &
 > abilities even with zero ranks of training; moreover some of these
 > vary by race. It seems reasonable to me that Anglisa would subtract
 > from these, effectively making you have "negative ranks".
 >
 > Whether you can actually have negative abilities is a different
 > question. It has been said that some people (e.g. healers with little
 > or no Bodrus) weilding an oak basher will see their balance decrease
 > while holding it. That would be negative regia.
 >
 > On the other hand, my experiments seem to indicate that, even if you
 > have "negative" darkus, you will still do a minimum amount of damage,
 > which is approximately 1/20th of what it takes to knock down a kudzu
 > plant.
 >
 > I have no idea whether or not health has a similar minimum override.
 > But here's a way you can find out. Time how long it takes for you to
 > troilus from the red-yellow transition to full health. Then train
 > something that changes your histia without affecting your troilus.
 > Time again. If the number doesn't change, that would imply an minimum
 > override.
 >
 > Of course that doesn't tell you how far below the minimum you actually
 > are. One way to answer that is, assuming you know exactly what you've
 > trained, to use Azriel's figures to compute your histia-equivalent
 > ranks, and compare that to the "base histia" (histia-equivalent ranks
 > of the health you started with) of your race. Alas, you're in no
 > position to figure out your base histia, and while I have an estimate
 > for myself, and I know of no published numbers for races in general.
 > I don't even know whether or not there is some initial individual
 > variation.
 >
 > Taryn.

Thanks for your input, Taryn. It is difficult for me to test how fast I
Troilus because nearly all healers seem to heal me to full as soon as
they raise me. Since I get one-hit by rats I can't just take a little
damage and measure it. I did get raised by a pretty new healer once and
I healed in just a few seconds with only 10 Troilus from about half
health.

I thought at first that maybe I was just re-learning my newbie skills,
but after studying 21 ranks of Histia and still getting dropped by one
rat bite it looks like I've got more of a penalty than that.

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

 > I never trained any Darkus and I only had 30 Histia to start with, so
 > will I have to train 75 Darkus and 100 Histia just to get back up to
 > where I started with them? Maybe this is some kind of bug previously
 > unknown because nobody was dumb enough to do this?

Be very careful messing about with Angilsa and Knoxx.

One of the reasons that they are only available at third circle and up
is that one can seriously mess up and/or unbalance a character by
training with them. The thinking is that by the time a player gets to
third circle, the player should be experienced and responsible enough
to handle a complex trainer that has negative side effects.

I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
impossible to train their health below "fallen".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

Austlyn <abc RemoveThis @defg.com> wrote in message news:<abc-E343AE.15231604122003 RemoveThis @nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
 > Thanks for your input, Taryn. It is difficult for me to test how fast I
 > Troilus because nearly all healers seem to heal me to full as soon as
 > they raise me. Since I get one-hit by rats I can't just take a little
 > damage and measure it. I did get raised by a pretty new healer once and
 > I healed in just a few seconds with only 10 Troilus from about half
 > health.

Most folks get damaged to red by using the portal. You could try
that, although I don't know where the portal goes right now.

However, "a few seconds" from half health to full health with 10
Troilus is not more than 1 rank of higgrus above zero health,
according to my rough calculations. If that's correct, then your
(negative) health is being overriden by a minimum, and you should see
a dramatic change when you train beyond it.

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Austlyn wrote:

 > In article <1g5a2i4.1g6jici1jb4yogN%pj@ag.ixserve.org>,
 > pj.DeleteThis@ag.ixserve.org (Pernille Jensen) wrote:
 >
  > > Austlyn <abc.DeleteThis@defg.com> wrote:
  > >
   > > > I never trained any Darkus and I only had 30 Histia to start with, so will
   > > > I have to train 75 Darkus and 100 Histia just to get back up to where I
   > > > started with them? > Maybe this is some kind of bug previously unknown
   > > > because nobody was dumb enough to do this?
  > >
  > > I'd only call it a bug if you had *not* gone into negative ranks. Did
  > > you expect to get the double Regia for free?
  > >
  > > Actually you should consider yourself lucky. With negative hit points,
  > > you could just as well have been dead. :D
  > >
  > >
  > > - Pernille
 >
 > I just want to know if this is what happened and just how much training
 > I'll need to get back to what I had. I've spent the last year and a half
 > training with Angilsa so it looks like I've got that much more time
 > before I can even hunt again. =)

Austlin, my friend!

My advice to you is to relax. Dont worry. Get a bloodblade. Whether you
know it or not, you are living the life of a bloodmage. If the BB doesn't
kill you, it will make you stronger.

Forget training mundane skills like regia or histia. They are a waste of
time. If you don't get hit, you don't need histia. ;-)

  <insert siren song of the blade here.>

The chief problem is going to be qualifying. Which brings me to
another matter:

Dear WatsonGM,

  Austlin is a perfect example of a natural bloodmage who will
probably never qualify for the blade because the qualifying critereon has
nothing to do with the blade's use in practice. In his current state, he
can tag without being swung at -- the basic element in the dance of the
bloodmage -- but it seems highly unlikely he is ever going to be able to
satisfy the arbitrary critereon currently in force to qualify to the
blade.

Best Regards,

Ian Ollmann

P.S. You have my vote for an immediate administrative promotion for the
poor boy to be a fully qualified bloodblade wielder. Anyone who
purposefully trains his health to 0 in order to attack better is bound to
be a natural!

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano.DeleteThis@cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

In article <ab72f927.0312051053.7e3b3031.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
watsongm.DeleteThis@moopenguin.org (Watson GM) wrote:

  > > I never trained any Darkus and I only had 30 Histia to start with, so
  > > will I have to train 75 Darkus and 100 Histia just to get back up to
  > > where I started with them? Maybe this is some kind of bug previously
  > > unknown because nobody was dumb enough to do this?
 >
 > Be very careful messing about with Angilsa and Knoxx.
 >
 > One of the reasons that they are only available at third circle and up
 > is that one can seriously mess up and/or unbalance a character by
 > training with them. The thinking is that by the time a player gets to
 > third circle, the player should be experienced and responsible enough
 > to handle a complex trainer that has negative side effects.
 >
 > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
 > impossible to train their health below "fallen".

Someone had to be the first to try it =)

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

Great idea about using the portal to damage me to red. It takes me 15
seconds to Troilus to full health from almost dead with only 10 Troilus.
I think my positive Histia must be in the decimals.

:Austlyn:
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

In article
<Pine.SGI.4.40.0312051519560.203264-100000 RemoveThis @helix2.caltech.edu>,
Ian Ollmann <iano RemoveThis @cco.caltech.edu> wrote:

 > My advice to you is to relax. Dont worry. Get a bloodblade. Whether you
 > know it or not, you are living the life of a bloodmage. If the BB doesn't
 > kill you, it will make you stronger.

Great idea! Now if only I could qualify, but I recover full health in 15
seconds with 10 Troilus so it's really not possible for me to fight on
red for long even if I had a way to be red and not fall.

Hmm... A Bloodblader with unlimited swings would be impressive. It would
be very difficult for me to qualify (assuming I wouldn't be hampered by,
uh, "outside sources").

Any advice on how to qualify, Ian? Do you click for a bloodblader
yourself?

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Austlyn wrote:

 > In article
 > <Pine.SGI.4.40.0312051519560.203264-100000 RemoveThis @helix2.caltech.edu>,
 > Ian Ollmann <iano RemoveThis @cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
 >
  > > My advice to you is to relax. Dont worry. Get a bloodblade. Whether you
  > > know it or not, you are living the life of a bloodmage. If the BB doesn't
  > > kill you, it will make you stronger.
 >
 > Great idea! Now if only I could qualify, but I recover full health in 15
 > seconds with 10 Troilus so it's really not possible for me to fight on
 > red for long even if I had a way to be red and not fall.
 >
 > Hmm... A Bloodblader with unlimited swings would be impressive. It would
 > be very difficult for me to qualify (assuming I wouldn't be hampered by,
 > uh, "outside sources").
 >
 > Any advice on how to qualify, Ian? Do you click for a bloodblader
 > yourself?

My advice is to lobby for special case consideration for administrative
promotion. You dont adhere to the letter of the bloodmage ethos, but you
do the spirit with gusto. It would make for excellent role play if only
you could get past this little hurdle.

Before going to a lot of trouble, I'd borrow a BB and see what it does to
your health.

Ian

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano RemoveThis @cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

In article <ab72f927.0312051053.7e3b3031.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
watsongm.RemoveThis@moopenguin.org (Watson GM) wrote:

 > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
 > impossible to train their health below "fallen".

I'd be happy to spare you some of mine... <snicker>

--
You have to remove your clothes if you want me to read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, ever purchase any product from
any company which gathers addresses from the usenet; period.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

In article <Chum-8F591D.18050805122003.RemoveThis@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Chum <Chum@*YOUR-CLOTHES*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > In article <ab72f927.0312051053.7e3b3031.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
 > watsongm.RemoveThis@moopenguin.org (Watson GM) wrote:
 >
  > > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
  > > impossible to train their health below "fallen".
 >
 > I'd be happy to spare you some of mine... <snicker>

Sympathy? I'm not looking for any. I can't see myself "falling" from
Angilsa training, but it certainly looks like I'm down to small decimals
for health.

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Austlyn wrote:

 > I took your advice and got myself a bloodblade. I found that my health
 > drops FAST and it kills me in about 8 seconds.

That perhaps ought to be reported as a bug. :-) You may be suffering from
rounding up where rounding down might save your life or some such thing.
Your special case may not have been adequately tested.

Regarding the petition, DT has been known to do some pretty fancy things
to make the game go forward for people with a proven roleplaying
record. We have the monk compound, the knights, etc. In the grand
perspective of the historical record is perhaps a small thing to ask for.

The biggest barrier is just getting them to agree to a special case
promtion, which I am sure they are reluctant to provide precident for.
However, it would allow you to move forward with your character, so you
can at least claim a special circumstance.

In the meantime, you can greatly help your cause if you start roleplaying
it in a big way. For example, you can roleplay an outcast bloodmage or
fallen bloodmage or some such thing, or bloodmage from another school of
bloodmagery. I imagine your fighting style will have to be entirely
bloodmage like, until such time as you decide to train your histia back
up. Maybe they will never allow you to wield a bloodblade but will allow
you to wield a "soul dagger" or some such suspiciously highly similar
item. Much depends on you and where you want to take it.

Ian

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano.RemoveThis@cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks?