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CL: Angilsa and negative ranks?

 
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Ian Ollmann

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Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 168



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>mac>games>adventure (more info?)

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Austlyn wrote:

 > In article <Chum-8F591D.18050805122003.TakeThisOut@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
 > Chum <Chum@*YOUR-CLOTHES*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
 >
  > > In article <ab72f927.0312051053.7e3b3031.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>,
  > > watsongm.TakeThisOut@moopenguin.org (Watson GM) wrote:
  > >
   > > > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
   > > > impossible to train their health below "fallen".
  > >
  > > I'd be happy to spare you some of mine... <snicker>
 >
 > Sympathy? I'm not looking for any. I can't see myself "falling" from
 > Angilsa training, but it certainly looks like I'm down to small decimals
 > for health.

Its difficult to understate the level of sympathy Chum is likely to offer
anyone about anything. We may safely interpret his snicker as an
indication that sarcasm is at play here.

While many people good-naturedly belive Chum derives its meaning from the
term for good friend, in actual fact it's etymology is closer to the term
for the ground fish fragments/entrails used as shark bait. It is said that
even the Darshak don't like him and would make him walk the plank if they
could. ;-)

Ian

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano.TakeThisOut@cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Aldernon

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 16



(Msg. 17) Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:16 am
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Ian Ollmann" <iano.RemoveThis@cco.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SGI.4.40.0312051519560.203264-100000@helix2.caltech.edu...
 >
 > Austlin, my friend!
 >
 > My advice to you is to relax. Dont worry. Get a bloodblade. Whether you
 > know it or not, you are living the life of a bloodmage. If the BB doesn't
 > kill you, it will make you stronger.
 >
 > Forget training mundane skills like regia or histia. They are a waste of
 > time. If you don't get hit, you don't need histia. ;-)
 >
 > <insert siren song of the blade here.>
 >
 > The chief problem is going to be qualifying. Which brings me to
 > another matter:
 >
 > Dear WatsonGM,
 >
 > Austlin is a perfect example of a natural bloodmage who will
 > probably never qualify for the blade because the qualifying critereon has
 > nothing to do with the blade's use in practice. In his current state, he
 > can tag without being swung at -- the basic element in the dance of the
 > bloodmage -- but it seems highly unlikely he is ever going to be able to
 > satisfy the arbitrary critereon currently in force to qualify to the
 > blade.
 >
 > Best Regards,
 >
 > Ian Ollmann
 >
 > P.S. You have my vote for an immediate administrative promotion for the
 > poor boy to be a fully qualified bloodblade wielder. Anyone who
 > purposefully trains his health to 0 in order to attack better is bound to
 > be a natural!

<IC>
"natural bloodmage"?! arbitrary criterion?!

First, Austlyn has been raffling black market bloodblades for years now. If
he hasn't already qualified then he's laundering them for someone who has
qualified but is clearly *not* a blood mage. Blades are to be earned, not
loaned/shared/bought. The mere idea of someone who has done so much to
dilute the purity of blood magic by sharing the tools among the layman,
*wanting* to become a bloodmage himself now...well it's sickening.

The path to discovering basic elemental blood magic is difficult, not
arbitrary. It's necessarily obscure though, be it the gods, or the nature
of magic itself, it doesn't lend itself to easy discovery. That's as it
should be, to discourage those who would use it for ill (selling black
market blades comes to mind) and those who would not enjoy the path were
they to discover it too easily.

I have always said, if it's a path that one will find rewarding and
fulfilling, you will discover the secrets. If one doesn't discover the
secrets, then it's not the path for them and it's 99.9% likely they'd not
enjoy the path anyway.

All of that said, I believe there is room for people to change...

-Ald<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Jeff Ray

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Since: Jul 07, 2003
Posts: 36



(Msg. 18) Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
 > impossible to train their health below "fallen".

I assume this. I would consider it very poor game engine design that
allowed a player to train any stat into the negative ("fallen") range,
because it's so counter intuitive. Suspension of disbelief must be
given it's due. I would expect to be able to approach zero ("fallen"),
but as soon as I reached it I would expect to fall and any training
should stop.

-jrr<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Austlyn

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Since: Nov 30, 2003
Posts: 9



(Msg. 19) Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:40 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <br20sn$o9n$1@opal.spiralweb.com>,
"Aldernon" <aldernon DeleteThis @SPAMrisingMEclawNOT.com> wrote:

 > <IC>
 > "natural bloodmage"?! arbitrary criterion?!
 >
 > First, Austlyn has been raffling black market bloodblades for years now. If
 > he hasn't already qualified then he's laundering them for someone who has
 > qualified but is clearly *not* a blood mage. Blades are to be earned, not
 > loaned/shared/bought. The mere idea of someone who has done so much to
 > dilute the purity of blood magic by sharing the tools among the layman,
 > *wanting* to become a bloodmage himself now...well it's sickening.
 >
 > The path to discovering basic elemental blood magic is difficult, not
 > arbitrary. It's necessarily obscure though, be it the gods, or the nature
 > of magic itself, it doesn't lend itself to easy discovery. That's as it
 > should be, to discourage those who would use it for ill (selling black
 > market blades comes to mind) and those who would not enjoy the path were
 > they to discover it too easily.
 >
 > I have always said, if it's a path that one will find rewarding and
 > fulfilling, you will discover the secrets. If one doesn't discover the
 > secrets, then it's not the path for them and it's 99.9% likely they'd not
 > enjoy the path anyway.
 >
 > All of that said, I believe there is room for people to change...
 >
 > -Ald


Aldernon, yes I did raffle three bloodblades a very long time ago, at
the request of a bloodblader (who didn't want to be known for doing it).
I was informed of the error of my ways. At the time I didn't understand
what it meant to be a bloodblader but I have a better idea now. It's
not something I would do again.

:Austlyn:<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Drax

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Since: Aug 15, 2003
Posts: 4



(Msg. 20) Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jeff Ray <jeff.ray DeleteThis @dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<jeff.ray-9E5A2B.10131408122003 DeleteThis @ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>...
  > > I'd have quite limited sympathy for anyone who assumes it MUST be
  > > impossible to train their health below "fallen".
 >
 > I assume this. I would consider it very poor game engine design that
 > allowed a player to train any stat into the negative ("fallen") range,
 > because it's so counter intuitive. Suspension of disbelief must be
 > given it's due. I would expect to be able to approach zero ("fallen"),
 > but as soon as I reached it I would expect to fall and any training
 > should stop.
 >


Right. Plus, the CL Darwin Awards just aren't funny, unless exiles are
actually *dead*. Think there's any way that we could get this feature
added to the list? PK, but only in an absurdly self-inflicted sense?
;-)

-D, who is<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Ian Ollmann

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Since: Jul 06, 2003
Posts: 168



(Msg. 21) Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Aldernon wrote:

 > <IC>
 > "natural bloodmage"?! arbitrary criterion?!
 >
 > First, Austlyn has been raffling black market bloodblades for years now. If
 > he hasn't already qualified then he's laundering them for someone who has
 > qualified but is clearly *not* a blood mage. Blades are to be earned, not
 > loaned/shared/bought. The mere idea of someone who has done so much to
 > dilute the purity of blood magic by sharing the tools among the layman,
 > *wanting* to become a bloodmage himself now...well it's sickening.

Heh. I wasn't aware of his activities. I suppose we must admit there is a
chance of honest reform, even if he apparently has a gun to his head. It
sounds like it was a one time thing..

 > All of that said, I believe there is room for people to change...

Yep.

However, I still maintain that the qualification criterion is unsuitable
for the fighting style, though why is likely not obvious to the layman or
lay-GM, especially if they have bought into some of the hype you read in
this forum. I'm sure you understand my argument, if not totally agree. I
personally have always philosophically seen bloodmagery as redirecting
health into power. We (well, everyone) probably agrees on that. I hope DT
extends that theme in the future.

However, when we start to talk about fighting styles as a practical
matter, the fighting style for the BB beginner is mostly about learning
how to skillfully AVOID using health when projecting power in the
conventional sense -- i.e. don't get clobbered while hitting -- so you can
use it instead in the bloodmage sense. This in the end becomes the
prerequisite skill or actual "fighting style" that one has to master
before you can become a effective wielder of the bloodblade. Unlike many
of the other blades, this is a real, matter of fact fighting style learned
by the clicker, largely independent of ranks.

I'd much rather see mastery of that skill be the hallmark of a promising
student of blood magic than the current qualifying criterion.* People who
naturally fight according to the qualification criterion with a normal
blade much of the time can be described by a lot of adjectives, mostly
negative. "Skillful" probably isn't one of them. We hear this sentiment
all the time amongst people skeptical about bloodmagery. Frankly, they
have a point!

As a bloodmage, you are going to need skill to stay alive for any period
of time on the edge of death. Only someone who qualifies for a BB *on
purpose* under the current system seems likely to be described as skillful
to me, because that person has apparently mastered putting his health in
his own hands and lived to tell the tale.

Anyone who has been paying attenion would realise that what I just said is
at first glance completely in opposition to what you hear from many
conventional bloodblade wielders. They would say getting a blade on
purpose is unnatural, and to be avoided -- it is desirable to get one as
part of your natural hunting style. I shouldn't need to say this, but it
should be pretty apparent to anyone that fighting with the bloodblade
needs to be a deliberate and careful act. It is foolish to fight according
to the qualifying criterion haphazardly. If natural ability is what we
want, then the criterion for qualifying should measure your ability to
naturally fight in a deliberate careful way, not your tendency to fight in
the style prescribed by the criterion. Fighting according to the criterion
is a good indication of your natural tendency to fight unskillfully (with
any blade), and certainly fighting that way all the time is a baaad omen
if it happens with a regular blade. Things are only going to get harder
(much harder!) once you start using a BB.

Speaking directly now to those master bloodmages who remain skeptical, let
me ask you a question. If you were deprived of the knowledge of how to
qualify, someone put a dagger in your hands, and you continued to fight
exactly as if you were using a BB, would you be able to qualify for a
blooblade again? The answer is obvious. The qualifying criterion is so
unlike the actual practice of the blade, that the skilled bloodmage would
in fact be the last person you'd ever expect to qualify.

In summary, Aldernon, you are right. The current criterion is not
arbitrary. It is antithetical.

We should instead have some scoring system based on deliberate skillful
hunting. (I proposed one earlier.) This would weed out the ones who
unskillfully qualify and allow people like Austlyn to realistically
attempt to qualify. Whether or not he has the potential to be the best
bloodmage in the world, he will never become one in his current state.
That is a shame.

I reject any notion that having an inappropriate qualifying criterion is a
good thing because it keeps the number of blood mages down. If that was a
good idea, we should make negative karma (a sign of intolerance,
impatience and reluctance to help others) a prereq for healers, or low
darkus a prereq for goss wielders. Maybe a low mentus score should be a
must for all future promotions to journeyman mystic.

I also reject desire for obscurity, specialness, journey by discovery,
etc. as a good reason for preserving the current qualifying criterion in
this day and age. While these things are in general wonderful ways to add
a fantasy to the game, and certainly had their place at one time in the
history of the blade, the BB is no longer a good platform for that. A
bloodblade is a very practical, lethal tool. Its been around for quite
some time. The skilled bloodmage will use that blade to the exclusion of
all others if the situation and politics allow. To make matters worse, we
have lots of unskilled users who haemorrhage in town needlessly. Whether
we like it or not, they are bought and sold freely, sometimes even at
auction. Most significantly, they are an in-your-face reality to every
healer. In short, people see them around all the time. For this reason,
I'd say the time of mystery is over. Its not like a newbie is going to get
all the way to 3rd circle and be surprised by one of these things. Perhaps
the mystery will be back again when fullblown bloodmagery is discovered in
the lands -- I hope so, and I pledge to keep it so as long as possible --
but right now the blade itself is pretty mundane.

As a result, I suggest we treat it as such. Among other things, this means
we should teach those who come to learn about the discipline. The craft
can only be improved by having the majority of its practitioners wield the
blade masterfully. I don't know that that is the case right now. I also
think we should resist the urge to go overboard on features designed to
make the blade itself impractically dark and mysterious. When such game
features become commonplace, they are no longer exciting. Often they are
simply irritating or rude:

Ow! Ow! Ooh! Eeee! The pain! Gah! Whimper! Cry! Ack! Moan! Ouch! Waaah!
Sigh,

Ian

*Drivers licenses are given to people who can safely and skillfully
navigate the road, not people who've figured out how to put gas in the
car.

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano.RemoveThis@cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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test1

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Since: Aug 01, 2003
Posts: 18



(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 > Ian
 >
 > *Drivers licenses are given to people who can safely and skillfully
 > navigate the road, not people who've figured out how to put gas in the
 > car.
 >

Do you live in the US?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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StepKB

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Since: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 5



(Msg. 23) Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:02 am
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Or Europe for that matter? US drivers arent as bad as you'd think.


Darnok
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Hidden

External


Since: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 107



(Msg. 24) Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:02 am
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In article <20031213020233.01726.00000703.TakeThisOut@mb-m18.aol.com>,
stepkb.TakeThisOut@aol.com (StepKB) wrote:

 > Or Europe for that matter? US drivers arent as bad as you'd think.

European drivers are psychotic demihuman nutcases, to be sure, but at
least they USE THEIR GOD-FUCKING TURN SIGNALS, DO YOU HEAR THAT YOU
RETARDED MONKEYS WHO SHARE THE ROAD WITH ME? FUCKING TURN SIGNALS.

Ahem, sorry. And now back to our regularly scheduled vitriol and whining.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.TakeThisOut@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Merlisk

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Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 25) Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: CL: Angilsa and negative ranks? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <hidden-73E71E.23205012122003@localhost>,
Hidden <hidden RemoveThis @noDASHop.com> wrote:

 > DO YOU HEAR THAT YOU
 > RETARDED MONKEYS WHO SHARE THE ROAD WITH ME?

In Texas, you can only have either cell phones or turn signals.
Apparently, there's a law against having both.

:)

--
Merlisk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundragonclan.com/merlisk/" target="_blank">http://www.sundragonclan.com/merlisk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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StepKB

External


Since: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 5



(Msg. 26) Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:53 am
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LOL, well yeah Hidden.....Agreed.


Darnok
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