CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed.

In article <1g4y6zf.doo5v9h37kmaN%pj@ag.ixserve.org>, Pernille Jensen
<pj.RemoveThis@ag.ixserve.org> wrote:

 > If you plan on using the stonegirdle or lava cloak, the earthpower ranks
 > are not entirely wasted. Apparently you need well over 100 ranks of
 > Toomeria just to get the blasted things working. I have 104 earthpower
 > ranks, and I'm still getting "*You do not have enough earthpower to ..."
 >
 > Watson GM did say 3-4 weeks ago that he would look at it. I'm not sure
 > if he has, yet. He has probably been busy with the #§%& portals.

Toomeria will be fixed in v313. All Champions will have their Toomeria
ranks automatically untrained at no loss of experience. They will be
able to re-train those ranks with the new Toomeria or with any other
normal trainer the first time they log on.

I'd recommend training new Toomeria a little at a time. Dumping all
your old Toomeria into new Toomeria will probably be more than you
want.

Ann<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Ann GM <ann.TakeThisOut@admin.SPAMLESSclanlord.com> wrote:

 > Toomeria will be fixed in v313. All Champions will have their Toomeria
 > ranks automatically untrained at no loss of experience. They will be
 > able to re-train those ranks with the new Toomeria or with any other
 > normal trainer the first time they log on.

That's great news. Thanks!


- Vi<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Ann GM wrote:

 > Toomeria will be fixed in v313. All Champions will have their Toomeria
 > ranks automatically untrained at no loss of experience. They will be
 > able to re-train those ranks with the new Toomeria or with any other
 > normal trainer the first time they log on.
 >
 > I'd recommend training new Toomeria a little at a time. Dumping all
 > your old Toomeria into new Toomeria will probably be more than you
 > want.

But the untrained ranks can't be retrained a little at a time; the game
mechanics force players to retrain them all very quickly.

I realize the GM's don't want people to store ranks, but there are
situations where it would be really nice to make an exception.

By the way, if the GM's REALLY don't want players to store ranks, why
haven't they fixed the "store them on a capped trainer" exploit? Seems
like it would be easy enough to augment the code that generates

* You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.

with code that does the equivalent of

* You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
* You have resumed training with YourMostRecentUncappedTrainer.

-jrr<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

 > I have a miniscule amount of Atkite dude, and an equally miniscule
 > amount of Channel dude.

You should be training more "Channel dude" than "Atkite dude"; if you
are training equal amounts, you are over-training with the "Atkite
dude".

 > When I check my Atkite reflection it says "You need lots more
 > Earthpower to use Atkite effectively." or something like that.

There seems to be a fair bit of confusion around how the Champion
minerals work, and I'd like to help clear it up.

One can think of the training that a Champion has with the Channel
Master as a pool of ranks that can be quickly moved from one combat
ability to another by changing which mineral a Champion weilds.

For example, if a Champion is sufficiently trained in both Atkite and
Darkite, when she is holding her Atkite, she will get to use all her
Channel Master ranks to increase the odds of a successful attack. If
she wants to do more damage, instead, she can switch to using her
Darkite, and her Channel Master ranks will act to increase the damage
that she does when she hits. If the same Champion had not yet trained
with a third mineral (say Balthite), she will gain no advantage by
switching to use Balthite.

In general, it is not efficient to just train with just one mineral.
To get the maximum amount of Aktus, a Champion would be better off
just training Atkus rather than training both with the Atkite trainer
and Channel Master. One the other hand, as soon as a Champion is
training with two minerals, the flexiblity starts to pay off, and the
Champion has access to more (combined ) ability than would be directly
available from normal fighter trainers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

In article <jeff.ray-735DA7.10444825112003.DeleteThis@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
Jeff Ray <jeff.ray.DeleteThis@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:

 > I realize the GM's don't want people to store ranks, but there are
 > situations where it would be really nice to make an exception.
 >
 > By the way, if the GM's REALLY don't want players to store ranks, why
 > haven't they fixed the "store them on a capped trainer" exploit? Seems
 > like it would be easy enough to augment the code that generates
 >
 > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
 >
 > with code that does the equivalent of
 >
 > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
 > * You have resumed training with YourMostRecentUncappedTrainer.

Interestingly enough, this is not a case of "GMs don't want players to
do something they might think is fun, hence they nerfed it." Rather, it
was felt that the business of saving up oodles of ranks and then "going
shopping" at the various trainers did not give players the sort of
feedback they wanted, and that more-regular "you are getting more
handsome" messages would be thought by most to be "more fun."

 > But the untrained ranks can't be retrained a little at a time; the game
 > mechanics force players to retrain them all very quickly.

As it is, you only get "tickled" to train a single rank every minute or
two and, given that nearly everyone logs off in the library, they're
less than a minute or two from any given trainer, so I'm not sure that
there's any "forced to train them all very quickly" that comes into
play, here.

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

In article <HelpfulGM-574F68.16050325112003.RemoveThis@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > In article <jeff.ray-735DA7.10444825112003.RemoveThis@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
 > Jeff Ray <jeff.ray.RemoveThis@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
 >
  > > I realize the GM's don't want people to store ranks, but there are
  > > situations where it would be really nice to make an exception.
  > >
  > > By the way, if the GM's REALLY don't want players to store ranks, why
  > > haven't they fixed the "store them on a capped trainer" exploit? Seems
  > > like it would be easy enough to augment the code that generates
  > >
  > > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
  > >
  > > with code that does the equivalent of
  > >
  > > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
  > > * You have resumed training with YourMostRecentUncappedTrainer.
 >
 > Interestingly enough, this is not a case of "GMs don't want players to
 > do something they might think is fun, hence they nerfed it." Rather, it
 > was felt that the business of saving up oodles of ranks and then "going
 > shopping" at the various trainers did not give players the sort of
 > feedback they wanted, and that more-regular "you are getting more
 > handsome" messages would be thought by most to be "more fun."

Saving was more fun.

- Maeght<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Pernille Jensen <pj.RemoveThis@ag.ixserve.org> wrote:

 > I'm not sure you need any earthpower (Toomeria) for the 'ites. The
 > /reflect messages seem misleading and confusing. They tricked me, too.
 >
 > You will however need a good deal of "Channel dude." Probably 2-3 times
 > the amount of your "Atkite dude."
 >
 > If you plan on using the stonegirdle or lava cloak, the earthpower ranks
 > are not entirely wasted. Apparently you need well over 100 ranks of
 > Toomeria just to get the blasted things working. I have 104 earthpower
 > ranks, and I'm still getting "*You do not have enough earthpower to ..."
 >
 > Watson GM did say 3-4 weeks ago that he would look at it. I'm not sure
 > if he has, yet. He has probably been busy with the #¤%& portals.
 >
 >
 > - Vi

Can you share any info on what its like to be a Champion yet?

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message news:<HelpfulGM-574F68.16050325112003 DeleteThis @sea-read.news.verio.net>...
 > In article <jeff.ray-735DA7.10444825112003 DeleteThis @ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
 > Jeff Ray <jeff.ray DeleteThis @dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
 >
  > > I realize the GM's don't want people to store ranks, but there are
  > > situations where it would be really nice to make an exception.
  > >
  > > By the way, if the GM's REALLY don't want players to store ranks, why
  > > haven't they fixed the "store them on a capped trainer" exploit? Seems
  > > like it would be easy enough to augment the code that generates
  > >
  > > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
  > >
  > > with code that does the equivalent of
  > >
  > > * You can no longer train with CappedTrainer.
  > > * You have resumed training with YourMostRecentUncappedTrainer.
 >
 > Interestingly enough, this is not a case of "GMs don't want players to
 > do something they might think is fun, hence they nerfed it." Rather, it
 > was felt that the business of saving up oodles of ranks and then "going
 > shopping" at the various trainers did not give players the sort of
 > feedback they wanted, and that more-regular "you are getting more
 > handsome" messages would be thought by most to be "more fun."

I think it was "•You get smarter and more beautiful." In any case,
the old system of saving up ranks, especially for trainers that had a
high price like Troilus, was also an interesting way to do it. It
forced exiles to think about their immediate goals in a concrete way.
The new system generally works too, but ...

  > > But the untrained ranks can't be retrained a little at a time; the game
  > > mechanics force players to retrain them all very quickly.
 >
 > As it is, you only get "tickled" to train a single rank every minute or
 > two and, given that nearly everyone logs off in the library, they're
 > less than a minute or two from any given trainer, so I'm not sure that
 > there's any "forced to train them all very quickly" that comes into
 > play, here.


It's exactly 90 seconds between "tickles". And I think the point is
that this is not a lot of time to between involuntarily untrained
ranks for one to actually go test the training effect in the field
before deciding whether to change trainers or not. For a Dethite,
say, that'd mean finding something tough enough to have a chance to
hit me. I'm not affected by this change, but if I were, I would
appreciate a way to slow down the torrent, such as maybe untraining
one or ten old Toomeria at a time instead of all at once. It is just
an unnatural way to train, and it seems a bit rude to fix a slow
screwover bug with a rapid fix that may well make the intended fixees
into victims yet again.

Azriel<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Watson GM <watsongm.DeleteThis@moopenguin.org> wrote:

[...]

Thanks for the explanation.

 > In general, it is not efficient to just train with just one mineral.
 > To get the maximum amount of Aktus, a Champion would be better off
 > just training Atkus rather than training both with the Atkite trainer
 > and Channel Master. One the other hand, as soon as a Champion is
 > training with two minerals, the flexiblity starts to pay off, and the
 > Champion has access to more (combined ) ability than would be directly
 > available from normal fighter trainers.

I see it a bit differently.

Say I train 90 Channel Master, and it takes 40(*) Darkite ranks to
activate those. I'll have spent 130 ranks to be able to turn 90 ranks
on/off. That's kinda OK. I can use 69% of my ranks.

Then I train 40 Atkite ranks to be able to move the 90 Channel Master
ranks into Atkus. I'll have spent 170 ranks to be able to turn 90 ranks
on/off or move them between Atkus/Darkus. Hmm... I can use 53% of my
ranks.

Finally I train 40 Balthite ranks. I'll have spent 210 ranks to be able
to turn 90 ranks off or move them between Atkus/Darkus/Balthus. Ugh. I
can only use 43% of my ranks at any one time.

For Balthite, I don't count the "flexibility" as a benefit. There's no
benefit from turning those ranks off. IMO it's far better to train with
the regular trainer so you can use the ranks 100% of the time. Unlike
Atkus and Darkus, Balthus is always useful.

(*) Not sure that 40 is the correct number, but right now it's my best
guess. If it turns out to be considerably lower, I'd consider training
with 2 or 3 of the minerals.

I already get lots of flexibility, and far better return on ranks, from
my fell blade.


- Vi<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Michael <mike17032 DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:

 > Can you share any info on what its like to be a Champion yet?

It sucks. :p

OK, honestly, I have no idea what it's like. I have 185 Champion ranks
that I haven't been able to use. Hopefully that will change tonight,
after the update.


- Vi<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

pj.DeleteThis@ag.ixserve.org (Pernille Jensen) wrote in message news:<1g50t4f.23oh8x1yr2beyN%pj@ag.ixserve.org>...
 > Watson GM <watsongm.DeleteThis@moopenguin.org> wrote:
 >
 > [...]
 >
 > Thanks for the explanation.
 >
  > > In general, it is not efficient to just train with just one mineral.
  > > To get the maximum amount of Aktus, a Champion would be better off
  > > just training Atkus rather than training both with the Atkite trainer
  > > and Channel Master. One the other hand, as soon as a Champion is
  > > training with two minerals, the flexiblity starts to pay off, and the
  > > Champion has access to more (combined ) ability than would be directly
  > > available from normal fighter trainers.
 >
 >
 > I already get lots of flexibility, and far better return on ranks, from
 > my fell blade.
 >

I think all that there is to discuss here is how much an appropriate
cost for moving the Channel Master ranks around should be. Clearly it
would be a very good deal if it only cost a single extra rank to swing
fifty ranks between Darkite and Atkite. Equally clealy, as the cost
increases, it becomes less of a good deal.

I tried to pick a "flexiblity tax" that would make the various choices
attractive, but not so compelling that Champions would never train
with the regular Fighter trainers again.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message news:<HelpfulGM-574F68.16050325112003 RemoveThis @sea-read.news.verio.net>...
 >
  > > But the untrained ranks can't be retrained a little at a time; the game
  > > mechanics force players to retrain them all very quickly.
 >
 > As it is, you only get "tickled" to train a single rank every minute or
 > two and, given that nearly everyone logs off in the library, they're
 > less than a minute or two from any given trainer, so I'm not sure that
 > there's any "forced to train them all very quickly" that comes into
 > play, here.

You're missing the point. A minute or two is enough to switch yes,
but not enough to see if you like what you are gettting. If one is
getting 50 ranks back from this bug-fix (or from staying in the
library a long time), one might like to invest 10 ranks in one
trainer, spend some time in the field seeing what it does for oneself,
then decide if one wants to spend another 10 ranks in that same
trainer or in a different one.

From what I've seen posted, the Champions have already had a difficult
time figuring out what their various training options do for them.
Now they are going to suddenly get a bunch of ranks, from the bug-fix,
and have to decide how to distribute them without being able to test
gradually what such training does for them.

A simple fix would be: cap the maximum number of ranks that are
converted into training between waking up and sleeping in a library.
E.g. 10 ranks. The rest are "stored" until next time. Anyone wanting
to convert those stored ranks quickly could simply wake up, visit the
NPC who converts ranks quickly, go back to sleep, repeat. The NPC who
tells you how close you are to your next rank could say, instead of
"nearing a breakthrough", something like "you need to rest to open
your mind to more training".

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Champion trainer messages - wtf? GM explanation needed. 

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003, Jeff Ray wrote:

 > I realize the GM's don't want people to store ranks, but there are
 > situations where it would be really nice to make an exception.

Here is my predicament. To be true to my character at this point, who is
totally committed to bloodmagery, I think I should be training more
bloodmagery whatnot. The thing is the character already has "enough" BB
ranks and is far more interested in the higher level bloodmage skills,
whatever they may turn out to be.

What would be really grand would be a bloodmage tracking skill available
today (like toomeria, I guess) that the character could start working on,
even though at the moment it doesn't actually do anything. Its still a
heckuva lot better than dumping points into standard fighter skills, which
are from my perspective (both IC and OOC) a waste of time. If it turns out
that I have way too many ranks of hemophilius or whatever by the time the
bloodmage becomes a reality, hopefully I will be given the opportunity to
redirect these as I would have like to if the skills were available today.

Based on recent discussions about how the cost of ranks change as you get
more, it looks like every rank I spend on stuff I don't want now just
makes it that much harder to get ranks when what I do want becomes
available. It would be nice to have a workaround while we wait, so I don't
end up wasting it on stuff I don't really want like dentir or PF, making
life harder for myself in the future.

If I can't store ranks, it seems like my best choice long term is to
simply not play until the trainers are available.

Ian

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano RemoveThis @cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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