Re: CL: Movable Portals

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Klur wrote:

 > In a world of finite and scarce Challenges/Risks/Rewards the notion
 > of standing on anothers shoulder simply comes down to how quickly
 > will you toss the world aside out of lack of anything new or join the
 > ranks of those that complain about the growth rate, lack of rewards
 > etc etc etc.
 >
 > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
 > everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
 > every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
 > conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
 > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with? All but the
 > last one of these I could probably do. But, even the last one I could push
 > you at a rate far beyond the average.

Nope, and nobody is proposing that.

We already have people complaining that there is nothing to do and no
rewards, and yet, they could be exploring. Curiously, they aren't! I'd
like to. I think it would be great fun. I've never been invited to
participate in one of these things with PM, even though I asked to come
along. So, if I want to do these things I have to organize my own group.
The problem is that the barrier to exploration is too high. It takes a lot
of time, there is very little possibility of rescue if things go wrong,
and you need a lot of very specialized skills (FM, senior PF, high quality
healers, etc.) to even think about doing it seriously. I don't have these
things. So, I don't explore. I feel that I represent 95% of exiles or
more.

Mostly what we are asking however is that people who don't like the
portals leave them alone. If you don't want to use them, that's fine. If
other people need them to do certain things in the game that they would
not otherwise get to do, then that should be fine too.

Ian

---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. iano DeleteThis @cco.caltech.edu
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In article <slrnbjp3t2.hsp.matthew DeleteThis @red.jenika.com>,
Klur <klur DeleteThis @poguemahone.org> wrote:

 >
 > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
 > everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
 > every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
 > conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
 > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with? All but the
 > last one of these I could probably do. But, even the last one I could push
 > you at a rate far beyond the average.


I don't think its a matter of whether it is a "good" thing or not Klur.
I think its more a matter of "this is the way it is". CL has become what
it was intended ... a "commune". People believe they have are entitled
to all this information because someone else knows it; because its out
there. Similarly they believe everyone should have a sunstone, <insert
weapon here>, etc. You might as well give up this particular war you
know. You are heavily out numbered.

rhdennis<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rhdennis <rhdennis DeleteThis @guess.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<rhdennis-8678E1.09320715082003 DeleteThis @newssvr24-ext.news.prodigy.com>...

 >
 >
 > I don't think its a matter of whether it is a "good" thing or not Klur.
 > I think its more a matter of "this is the way it is". CL has become what
 > it was intended ... a "commune". People believe they have are entitled
 > to all this information because someone else knows it; because its out
 > there. Similarly they believe everyone should have a sunstone, <insert
 > weapon here>, etc. You might as well give up this particular war you
 > know. You are heavily out numbered.
 >
 > rhdennis

Great point... and "the way it is," is that if it can be moved, it
probably will. Rationalizations for, or against, are just like pissing
in the wind.

Anyway, I think you ought to broaden your speech to include more than
just Klur, here... the fact is, bitching doesn't move portals.

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Here is my scale of risk/reward preference:

1) people who don't want to do very much work and just want everything shown
to them - free ranks, free stuff, etc.

2) people who don't mind doing a fair amount of work, like to see a
reasonable reward, but also don't mind being helped or getting things for
free.

3) people who prefer to not take any handouts, explore/earn everything for
themselves, but may accept help on occasion.

4) people who will only do things for themselves, never accept help, and
expect the same of others.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone who plays falls into (2) or (3). Klur is
almost definitely a (4), which is fine. What bothers me is he is trying to
describe everyone in (2) as if they were part of (1), or possibly doesn't
see a difference between the two groups, and is using this indisctinction to
justify his policy on the teleporters.

I do a fair amount of helping other people in CL, so I don't mind getting
help when I can, and given the low amount of time I have been able to devote
to CL in the past few months, the portals have potential for allowing me to
do something fun in a short amount of time. It's one thing to move the
portals to someplace you'd rather have access to, but to move them just
because in your opinion people "shouldn't" hunt someplace or haven't
"earned" it, is vindictive BS. I don't think any of the newbies who got a
free sunstone from the DP group earned them, but I don't go around trying to
steal them.

Lex
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In article <5aaea913.0308151050.45f63fc5.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
drax.RemoveThis@risingclaw.com (Drax) wrote:

 > Anyway, I think you ought to broaden your speech to include more than
 > just Klur, here... the fact is, bitching doesn't move portals

Bitching doesn't, bitches do.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.RemoveThis@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Somejackass <klur.TakeThisOut@poguemahone.org> wrote in message news:<slrnbjp3t2.hsp.matthew.TakeThisOut@red.jenika.com>...

 > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
 > everything,

Go out to your car, or wherever else you keep any of your road maps,
or any other map you didnt make yourself, and kindly burn them.

 > solutions to all puzzles

nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.

 > provide a continueous supply of every item there is

Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
may enjoy providing for, and helping others.


 > instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area

Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.

 > give them a tour of every place that exists.

Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
ahem, "explorer" you are.

 > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?

Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.



Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
out from and kindly die.



-NB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <bhjenn$8v1s$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, "Lex" <corra.TakeThisOut@mac.com>
wrote:

 > Here is my scale of risk/reward preference:

[scale of 1-4, snipped]

 > I'm pretty sure almost everyone who plays falls into (2) or (3). Klur is
 > almost definitely a (4), which is fine. What bothers me is he is trying to
 > describe everyone in (2) as if they were part of (1), or possibly doesn't
 > see a difference between the two groups

Fun science you can do at home:

1 2 c d 3 4
+----------------------A-------+-------B----------------------+
Liberal moderate conservative

* Where do you fall on this scale?
* Where do most other people fall, in respect to you?

Bonus question:
* Where do most other people think you fall on this scale?

Here's what happens:

Nearly everyone thinks they fall between A & B. Notable exceptions for
people who are proud to "be weird" or extreme and like to brag about it
-- ignore them for now ;)

Among those who find themselves between A & B, a very large percentage
of them find that most other people are either (a) like them, (b)
between 1 & 2 or (c) between 3 & 4. that is, very few people know
anyone who they think is around "c" or "d" on the continuum.

Here's the fun part: nearly everyone ELSE feels that the people who
think they're between A & B are at the far end from where they are
(i.e., if you think most people are between 1 & 2, then most people
think you're between 3 & 4, and vice versa.)

Example: I think of myself as hovering near B, maybe a bit on the
inside, as I have a few liberal tendancies. I tend to think that 92%+
of the rest of the population is over there at "1" or beyond. Guess
what? Most of the rest of the population sees me at over there at "4"
or beyond -- surprize!

"Who cares?!", you say? Klur probably thinks he's reasonable and
moderate -- perhaps just to the left of "B", and thinks most other
clanners are "way too liberal". You, being quite liberal from Klur's
POV, see him as "exceptionally conservative." It's all relative, and
based on the idea that most people consider themselves smart,
reasonable, and "able to see both sides" in a balanced way, which means
they see others as falling left or right of their POV (except those who
agree with us, which, of course, we tend to view as smart, reasonable
and well-balanced people :)

Helpful "why are there no other conservatives over here, with me?!" GM ;)

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <HelpfulGM-983EFC.13385715082003 RemoveThis @sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > "Who cares?!", you say? Klur probably thinks he's reasonable and
 > moderate -- perhaps just to the left of "B", and thinks most other
 > clanners are "way too liberal". You, being quite liberal from Klur's
 > POV, see him as "exceptionally conservative." It's all relative, and
 > based on the idea that most people consider themselves smart,
 > reasonable, and "able to see both sides" in a balanced way, which means
 > they see others as falling left or right of their POV (except those who
 > agree with us, which, of course, we tend to view as smart, reasonable
 > and well-balanced people :)

Here's the thing: Nobody sees Klur as 1 or 2. NOBODY. That means he's 3
or 4. If he were A-B, then at least a few people (the people who
honestly belong at 3 and 4) would see him as a 1 or 2. Some people (also
3/4s) see him as A-B, but nobody sees them as 1 or 2, either.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden RemoveThis @noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <slrnbjp3t2.hsp.matthew.DeleteThis@red.jenika.com>,
Klur <klur.DeleteThis@poguemahone.org> wrote:

 > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
 > everything,

Not everything. Most things, though.

 > solutions to all puzzles,

No.

 > provide a continueous supply of
 > every item there is,

No.

 > instantly teach and show them how best to
 > conquer every area,

Yes.

 > give them a tour of every place that exists,

Yes.

 > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?

No.

Any other questions?


HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB

--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <761311b1.0308151913.8d2ab7c.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>,
NightbirdCL.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (NightBird) wrote:

 > Somejackass <klur.TakeThisOut@poguemahone.org> wrote in message
 > news:<slrnbjp3t2.hsp.matthew.TakeThisOut@red.jenika.com>...
 >
  > > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
  > > everything,
 >
 > Go out to your car, or wherever else you keep any of your road maps,
 > or any other map you didnt make yourself, and kindly burn them.

Road maps in your car are there to "do work." In a game of discovery,
detailed "maps of everything" are destructive. Sort of like sitting
next to someone in a theatre who keeps saying "ooo, this next part is
great -- I love when he punches the guy in the nose...", etc.

No one objects to hints & help -- heck, that's "cooperative
interaction"! Detailed "here is the secret cave" maps posted to public
forums (a) spoil the fun and (b) automate and completely remove the
cooperation and human-interaction -- hence eroding the game. *THAT*'s
the thing we object to. "Here, let me show you around" is A Good Thing!
"I'm busy, check out <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com" target="_blank">www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com</a>" is A Bad Thing. See
the difference?

  > > solutions to all puzzles
 >
 > nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.

Agreed. Although, personally, I prefer socratic hints. In fact, I no
longer ask for hints, because so many people can't help but just blurt
out the answer, even if I say "don't tell me, just give me a really bad
hint that I might figure out, someday..."

  > > provide a continueous supply of every item there is
 >
 > Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
 > may enjoy providing for, and helping others.

Again -- it's good that some people enjoy sharing their abundant wealth
with others. The problem, of course, is that it erodes the experience.
But, as you say, we can't stop you...

  > > instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area
 >
 > Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
 > suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.

Agreed, see above. Funny that you feel this way about some things
(puzzles & conquering), but seem to feel the opposite about others (maps
and item-gifts.) <shrug> whatever...

  > > give them a tour of every place that exists.
 >
 > Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
 > just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
 > something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
 > ahem, "explorer" you are.

"Explorer" != "Jackass" -- just FYI.

  > > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?

 > Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.

It just sort of follows. Plus, many people would much prefer to start
as a 4th circle whatever rather than "have to beat a million rats to
death" -- it's not an unreasonable extention of the rest...

 > Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
 > out from and kindly die.

Heh, you & your friends get to state your POV, and try to enforce it on
others ("if you don't like it, you can fuck off & die"), but he's not
entitled to do the same?!

Helpful "high horse, indeed!" GM
aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <HelpfulGM-8C6965.20420015082003.RemoveThis@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

   > > > solutions to all puzzles
  > >
  > > nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.
 >
 > Agreed. Although, personally, I prefer socratic hints. In fact, I no
 > longer ask for hints, because so many people can't help but just blurt
 > out the answer, even if I say "don't tell me, just give me a really bad
 > hint that I might figure out, someday..."

The number of lights is a square integer lower than 9.

  > > Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
  > > just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
  > > something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
  > > ahem, "explorer" you are.
 >
 > "Explorer" != "Jackass" -- just FYI.

Depends on your point of view. If you're a Socializer, no. If you're an
Achiever, yes.

   > > > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
 >
  > > Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.
 >
 > It just sort of follows. Plus, many people would much prefer to start
 > as a 4th circle whatever rather than "have to beat a million rats to
 > death" -- it's not an unreasonable extention of the rest...

The problem is that games like CL offer very few tracks of advancement.
You can advance in ranks, or in coins. Not much else provided by the
game framework (I don't count social advancement, since that can happen
out of game, as well). If there were more different ways to improve
yourself, then starting off with 1k ranks to spend as you like (assuming
the game was balanced for this) wouldn't be so unreasonable.

 > aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)

I never woulda figured you for a Lisp hacker.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.RemoveThis@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Straw Man" I'm flattered.

What I offered was a reasonable approximation of standing on the shoulders of
PM/PMF. I'm pleased that it appears it is somewhat agreed that if PM/PMF did
this it would be viewed as a less than desirable thing.

I further hope this helps clarify why PM/PMF does not do such things.

But, now to get back to the real issue I have done my best to clearly state my
point of view. I also have demonstrated I will take action as out lined.

But, now it is time to organize. PM/PMF can not make my ideas a reality with
out a lot of others to play with. So what I'm looking to do is find other
individuals and clans that are generally in agreement with the concepts. If
you generally agree with them please get in contact with me. Their is much to
be done and the more of us that participate the less work any single
individual will have to do to experience the most fun.

I truly do want to see the portals used. In fact I want them to be in such
high demand for the types of activities I have identified and those that you
all dream up that adding more will make since.

Please don't be worried about contacting me I'm known for keeping secrets I
will not reveal anyones identity unless they approve of it.
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Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message news:<HelpfulGM-8C6965.20420015082003.DeleteThis@sea-read.news.verio.net>...
<snip>
 > Sort of like sitting next to someone in a theatre who keeps saying "ooo, this next part is
 > great -- I love when he punches the guy in the nose...", etc.

That's a bad example. CL is not a movie, or rather a tee-vee esque
game as you put it. Maps are a good thing, the people don't like them
don't have to use them.


 > "Here, let me show you around" is A Good Thing! "I'm busy, check out
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com" target="_blank">www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com</a>" is A Bad Thing. See the difference?

yes, I realize there is a difference ;p However, maps aren't bad,
neither is a site that has tons of them
(http://www.free-conversant.com/eyesofpuddleby/maps is GREAT!). Alot
of people put in alot of hard work to make those maps, and if they are
willing to share them with the community, they should be used.



   > > > provide a continueous supply of every item there is
  > >
  > > Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
  > > may enjoy providing for, and helping others.
 >
 > Again -- it's good that some people enjoy sharing their abundant wealth
 > with others. The problem, of course, is that it erodes the experience.
 > But, as you say, we can't stop you...

I never said I give hand outs left and right, I can't keep that kind
of spending up, along with my own needs. I only said that some people
enjoy different things. However, I know some exiles who would rather
help someone else get a ss then sleep in the expensive lib.



   > > > instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area
  > >
  > > Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
  > > suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.
 >
 > Agreed, see above. Funny that you feel this way about some things
 > (puzzles & conquering), but seem to feel the opposite about others (maps
 > and item-gifts.) <shrug> whatever...

Ok, newsflash. there is a "grey area." Believe it or not, some people
can feel one way about one topic, and another way about another, and
sometimes, they can be somewhere in the middle. Funny concept.



  > > Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
  > > out from and kindly die.
 >
 > Heh, you & your friends get to state your POV, and try to enforce it on
 > others ("if you don't like it, you can fuck off & die"), but he's not
 > entitled to do the same?!


Did I say "fuck off and die"? No, don't quote me on something I didn't
say. oh wait, no
, nevermind. After reading Klur's most recent post today, here it
comes "Klur, fuck off and die" there, now you can quote me on it.

And of course he's entitled to his POV, everyone is, but I'm not
trying to enforce mine, I'm not running around saying "goddamnit,
those portals should be used for something good, and I'm gonna make
sure of it!" He on the other hand, *IS* forcing his POV/ideals on
others by mucking up the portals. "See the difference?"

 > Helpful "high horse, indeed!" GM
 > aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)

.. . .


-NB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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