CL: More Portal Thoughts

Helpful GM wrote:

 > What about "I don't want other people using the portals because it
 > decreases THEIR challengs, and makes the game less fun for *ME*"?
 >
 > Selfish? Yes. But still a legitimate POV, imo.
 >

Looking at just the "challenge to get there" component, it's more like
two marathon racers who complain about all those other people who use
cars to get around, and some of them just happen to go to the same place
the finish line is, so the marathon racers mistake that for competition.
In this sense, PM/F is only in competition with themselves, and anyone
else who plays by the same self-imposed restrictions. They are not in
competition with people who use portals, for the same reason we don't
compare the cross-town times of marathon racers and taxi drivers.

[As an aside, this also points out the flaw with using "barrier snells"
(marathon races), since portals and pathfinding and teleportation (taxi
cabs) defeat them. The "challenges" associated with some reward need to
be co-located close enough together that they cannot be circumvented.
The web cavern, ironically, is an good example of this. The arachne
don't care one bit how you get there, whether you run the gauntlet of
all the intervening snells or if you parachute in via the portal. The
price of getting access to the advanced pathfinding book isn't getting
TO the cave, it's getting THROUGH it. All the barrier snells in front
of the cave mean nothing, because there are way to bypass them. And if
the GM's don't retire the notion of barrier snells, the problem of
people bypassing the challenge on the way to the reward is only going to
get worse as more traveling tools are added.]

Returning to the topic, the real issue here is competition for scarce
challenges. Personally, I don't consider this to be a problem the
players should be expected to solve. Considering how player numbers
have been falling, and those remaining are advancing more slowly, it
would seem that developing enough new content to keep up with the top
tier players would be getting easier as time goes on. So unless the
GM's are deliberately restricting new content in order to encourage
player conflict, I would expect the competition for scarce challenges to
go away eventually.

-jrr<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <jeff.ray-FB2C9B.12073310112003 DeleteThis @ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
Jeff Ray <jeff.ray DeleteThis @dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:

 > ves, and anyone
 > else who plays by the same self-imposed restrictions. They are not in
 > competition with people who use portals, for the same reason we don't
 > compare the cross-town times of marathon racers and taxi drivers.

Are we talking NY marathod/taxis? During rush hour? ;)

Good point, though...

 > [As an aside, this also points out the flaw with using "barrier snells"
 > (marathon races), since portals and pathfinding and teleportation (taxi
 > cabs) defeat them.

This is why teleportation & portals (which are everyman's teleportation)
and, to a lesser-extent PF (since we can throttle that by where we put
it) is so powerful, and comes with so many limits & costs.

Teleport/portals only defeat barrier snells to the extent that we allow
them. This is one reason why Mystics can only take a few people at a
time (well, until they can take more ;) -- to cap the power.

Portals present an additional difficulty in that there's no real cap --
100s of people can pass through.

Still, Watson's working on them, and they're getting better.

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Helpful GM wrote:

 > Teleport/portals only defeat barrier snells to the extent that we allow
 > them. This is one reason why Mystics can only take a few people at a
 > time (well, until they can take more ;) -- to cap the power.

Hasn't this already been circumvented, using fallens on chains?

-jrr<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Jeff Ray" <jeffray.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:jeffray-64B2B1.09024711112003@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com...
 > Helpful GM wrote:
 >
  > > Teleport/portals only defeat barrier snells to the extent that we allow
  > > them. This is one reason why Mystics can only take a few people at a
  > > time (well, until they can take more ;) -- to cap the power.
 >
 > Hasn't this already been circumvented, using fallens on chains?
 >
 > -jrr
Isnt that giving away Mystic secrets :)

(in other words shh or they might hork that too)

Mjollnir<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > Still, Watson's working on them, and they're getting better.

Better for PM maybe. I read about the changes to them. I fail to see
how thats better for anyone but your pet alpha dogs. Nice to see what
GMs actually care about.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <shadow-B2E4F3.11125912112003 DeleteThis @news.verizon.net>,
Darkening <shadow DeleteThis @blackonblack.net> wrote:

 > Mister HGM attempted to convey his view that the PM felt the danger
 > inherent in trying to co-exist in an area with another group, as this
 > would damage their well-oiled machine and put them at risk.

Correct so far, and certainly a valid issue.

 > My view is that PMs antisocial mind-set is what prevents them from
 > exploring with or near a group not of their own.

Also true, but not necessarily bad.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden DeleteThis @noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <shadow-A59537.17540712112003.TakeThisOut@news.verizon.net>,
Darkening <shadow.TakeThisOut@blackonblack.net> wrote:

  > > You're right. I'd rather do a CL spinoff. The engine is great, but the
  > > content is lacking at the high end.
 >
 > I'd also venture to say that SOCKs wouldn't be your language of choice
 > if you had to learn one to be a GM of a game.

Depends. Does the game support Lisp? If so, fuck SOCKS. Otherwise I
kinda doubt there's much variance between available minor scripting
langauges.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.TakeThisOut@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <shadow-A59537.17540712112003 RemoveThis @news.verizon.net>,
Darkening <shadow RemoveThis @blackonblack.net> wrote:

 > I'd also venture to say that SOCKs wouldn't be your language of choice
 > if you had to learn one to be a GM of a game.

FWIW, being a programmer (in any language) isn't required to be a GM in
Clan Lord, only to be a code-developer (i.e., AIs, items, etc.)

You're right about the shared-vision, though. While The Vision has lots
of room for flexibility and creativity, there are some things that it
requires, and a few that it prohibits. People who have philosophical
issues with this and aren't willing to either stow them or discuss them
with others until everyone (most importantly Joe) comes around probably
shouldn't be GMs for obvious reasons.

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Baff <baff.RemoveThis@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote in message
 > If all the rewards are changed such that people who can only clan for one
 > hour/week have easy access to them, then what incentive is there for people
 > to play for more than one hour/week?
 >
Close. Consider it slightly differently as:

What if the challenges were changed so that people who can only clan
for one hour at a time would have access to them?

That is what I would like to see improved. Not easy access to rewards,
but to the challenges of trying to earn them. Access proportional to
your level as well? No doubt there needs to be balance, but not having
the time to get to the challenge makes it as good as not having the
challenge available at all, eh? And as you point out, without
challenge why clan?

- hwc Zilo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <slrnbr7qs0.g5g.matthew.RemoveThis@red.jenika.com>,
Klur <klur.RemoveThis@poguemahone.org> wrote:

 > I never see challenges in CL at this point and time as based on
 > "available large chunks of time". What I see is requirments imposed
 > on exiles to achieve before some challengs will be accesible in very
 > short time.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of exiles are too set in their ways to
try new ways of getting through these challenges, being too afraid of a
depart to take the risk. And while it would be a lot of fun to be able
to take a 50 minute trip to the WC and back (I can just hear all the UK
clanners snickering) it's just not worth the effort of instigating a
truly massive social change in enough people to matter. But hey, I guess
that's just another "challenge."

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.RemoveThis@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article, Zilo wrote:
 > Close. Consider it slightly differently as:
 >
 > What if the challenges were changed so that people who can only clan
 > for one hour at a time would have access to them?
 >
 > That is what I would like to see improved. Not easy access to rewards,
 > but to the challenges of trying to earn them. Access proportional to
 > your level as well? No doubt there needs to be balance, but not having
 > the time to get to the challenge makes it as good as not having the
 > challenge available at all, eh? And as you point out, without
 > challenge why clan?
 >

Not exactly what about wanting to live in a world with known challenges that no
one has mastered? How do you keep exiles from just doing a challenge over and
over again to solve it in days but instead make it so that one difficult
challenge takes years to master.

The history of Puddleby was once one of a new challenge appears on a update
everyone comes out of lib after update finds it and with everyone on masters it
then publishes it and in one day that challenge is now nothing but another
snell. Some God probably spent months of effort to create that challenge yet
it was removed in one day. That is a lot of effort on creation for no return.

If the challenge at least lasted as long as the creation then I would say it
at least wasn't waisted time.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <slrnbr7j37.fp6.matthew DeleteThis @red.jenika.com>,
Klur <klur DeleteThis @poguemahone.org> wrote:

 > In article, Zilo wrote:
  > > Close. Consider it slightly differently as:
  > >
  > > What if the challenges were changed so that people who can only clan
  > > for one hour at a time would have access to them?
  > >
  > > That is what I would like to see improved. Not easy access to rewards,
  > > but to the challenges of trying to earn them. Access proportional to
  > > your level as well? No doubt there needs to be balance, but not having
  > > the time to get to the challenge makes it as good as not having the
  > > challenge available at all, eh? And as you point out, without
  > > challenge why clan?
  > >
 >
 > Not exactly what about wanting to live in a world with known challenges that
 > no
 > one has mastered? How do you keep exiles from just doing a challenge over and
 > over again to solve it in days but instead make it so that one difficult
 > challenge takes years to master.

Make some or all of the opposition so strong that given current rank
gain curves for upper level people it would take years to get in the
ballpark. Make it move fast, kill zu and pull/chain fallens.

 > The history of Puddleby was once one of a new challenge appears on a update
 > everyone comes out of lib after update finds it and with everyone on masters
 > it
 > then publishes it and in one day that challenge is now nothing but another
 > snell. Some God probably spent months of effort to create that challenge yet
 > it was removed in one day. That is a lot of effort on creation for no return.
 >
 > If the challenge at least lasted as long as the creation then I would say it
 > at least wasn't waisted time.

Well GMs do art, others do more practical design. Both can easily be
created in such a way that they last nearly no time or practically
forever.

It is, however, easy to get caught up in the work and lose sight of the
big picture.

- Maeght<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <slrnbr7qs0.g5g.matthew.TakeThisOut@red.jenika.com>,
Klur <klur.TakeThisOut@poguemahone.org> wrote:

 > In article, Darkening wrote:
  > >
  > > Klur...why do you insist on translating "Easier access to a challenge"
  > > as "Make the challenge easier"?
 >
 > Often the process to solving a challenge involves number of tries before a
 > solution is found. If it on average takes 100 tries before someone solves a
 > particular challenge then on average you simply have to ask how often can
 > a exile try this challenge before they get 100 tries and it will be solved.
 >
 > If we allow 100 tries in 10min then it will be solved in 10min if we allow
 > 100 tries in three years then it will be solved in 3 years. The rate at which
 > you get to try a challenge is a factor in how much time it will take to
 > master. The challenge it self does not change the rate to mastery does.

Last I heard, some of those challeges required many attempts to get TO
the challenge and substantial amount of time to take the challenge
itself.

How long the challenge takes to resolve depends on the variables used to
define the challenge, whether or not the challenge is a static or
dynamic one, and the resources required and available to throw at the
challenge.

- Maeght<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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