CL: Toggle Etiquette

Azriel_CL.RemoveThis@lycos.com (Azriel) wrote in message news:<beed519e.0311121550.7b56be10.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>...

 > I had an odd experience today that lead me to think there may be
 > different, unspoken etiquette styles for toggling, and that folks
 > expecting their style get annoyed when you use a different one. No,
 > not the dreaded half-toggle!

Slyph started a nice thread on the Sentinel on toggling ettiquette
that partly answers your post.

Here are some of my opinions.

 > I was fallen, alone as always, in a place that was obvious due to the
 > critter that got me, and two exiles asked for toggles if I needed
 > help. I answered both.

If the healer asked you first, perhaps you shouldn't have answered the
fighter. It's a healer's responsibility to ask for whatever
assistance they need in doing a rescue; in my early healing days, I
almost always asked for a fighter escort. And if the healer doesn't
get it right, that's part of their learning experience in being a
rescuer. If the healer is far, they also have the option of asking
someone else to rescue (e.g. I just rescued in Northern Plains and
someone toggles Kitty Beach). Locating is part of the rescue, and I
feel fighters will reward healers who use the healer network to get
them help quickly with future shares.

If the fighter asks first, it depends on the circumstances. You'll
need a healer anyways, and healers often appreciate fighters clearing
the area for them. If the fighter shows up first, you can always tell
the which healer is coming. Or, the fighter could ask for a healer.
A few fighters like chain rescuing so much they'd rather not have
healers show up. If you don't want to be chained, maybe you should
wait a bit before toggling them, to see if a healer asks if you need
help instead?

 > One exile, a healer, got the location right
 > first try and ssed me directly that she would come out to get me, and
 > stopped asking questions. Exile 2, a fighter, guessed the location,
 > but made a general ss announcement of the form "Is anyone helping
 > Az?"

I've learned that if I can't rescue myself, the fallens would prefer
my not asking if they need help, so they can toggle someone else who
is available to rescue. If I get a 2nd fallen message, I'll ss the
fallen that I'm unable to rescue, but invite them to toggle if they
want me to broadcast for help (or to locate if I can do that much).

 > and after getting no immediate response, sent a second general
 > ss with my location and asked for someone to go there. Exile 1 now
 > answered that she was en route,

While it may have seemed incumbent on Exile 1 to reply to the first
general broadcast, while travelling to the rescue the healer has to
deal with stuff on the way, and excess sunstoning can be dangerous.

 > and further implied that Exile 2
 > should have known, from asking _me_ apparently, that someone was now
 > on the way to me. Impossible of course, since togglers can only
 > answer the questions asked, and only if asked unambiguously: there's
 > no generally accepted way to tell a questioner to stop asking after
 > starting to toggle talk.

To tell someone you don't need their help anymore, unshare them not in
response to a question. They will infer that you just rotated shares
because someone else is healing you (which isn't correct), which then
implies you don't need their help (which is what you want to say).

After you are raised, if you want to reshare the person you unshared,
you're also able to ss them that you're ok.

 > Anyway, all is good, someone's on the way,
 > and just in case the rescue goes badly, my location is now known. In
 > the meantime, Exiles 3 through 6 show up, since they were close by
 > apparently, and start to raise me. Exile 1 walks in not a moment
 > later, and while I am still on the ground but being healed, mutters
 > about wasting her time, and stalks off without healing me at all.
 > That I'd been sharing for an hour didn't seem to figure into her
 > calculations.

I have sometimes had three fallens simultaneously toggling me for
help. Other times I'll be supporting a group. Going to your rescue
can mean depriving others, which also mean those others won't be as
interested in sharing me or inviting me in the future. It was
fortuitous that exiles 3-6 showed up; but you can also ss Exile 1 that
they were unexpected, and give Exile 1 good karma. Some fighters even
insist on tipping me even though I arrive late.

 > I _think_ Exile 1 was expecting an exclusive toggle; that is, that any
 > fallen toggling her was clearly not answering anyone else, and was
 > inviting her to do the rescue personally.

I feel if someone affirmatively answers my question of their needing
help, I've just acquired the responsibility to help them. It may or
may not result in my rescuing them personally. In situatons like a
Valley rescue, where many people will be needed, toggling several
people seems ok to me: I'd next broadcast if I could help join the
Valley rescue. Alot depends on who's toggling you and what their
abilities are, with respect to your circumstances. You don't need the
whole town turning out if you just fell in the Rat Towers, but maybe
you do if you fell on the Portal Island.

 > Being fallen, my selfish interest
 > is in getting raised as fast as possible, by whoever, and so
 > I toggle anyone who asks and am glad to see whoever shows up. I
 > thought all exiles are in my camp on this, but I'm not so sure now.

If you're really glad that they all show up, you tip them all, right?
:)

 >
 > My question is this, do folks asking for toggles really expect that
 > fallens will do "excusive toggles" to the first person to ask, or do
 > you assume that fallens will toggle whoever asks, for as long as they
 > ask, until they are actually raised?

When I'm fallen, I'll toggle for sufficient help.

 > Is this a healer- versus fighter-expectation thing?

Apparently yes.

 > Are healers all quietly simmering in
 > resentment over being called for help and then not getting the raise?

I usually shrug it off. But it might also mean I might not jump as
quickly to your rescue the next time. :)

 >
 > Thanks!

You're welcome. All opinions my own, of course!

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Azriel wrote:

 > My question is this, do folks asking for toggles really expect that
 > fallens will do "excusive toggles" to the first person to ask, or do
 > you assume that fallens will toggle whoever asks, for as long as they
 > ask, until they are actually raised? Is this a healer- versus
 > fighter-expectation thing? Are healers all quietly simmering in
 > resentment over being called for help and then not getting the raise?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Az

I don't think healers quietly simmer in resentment for not getting a
raise. It's more likely that they are irritated about coming however far
they had to come for nothing. If I toggle talk someone and find out
where they are and say that I am coming, I expect them to wait for me,
since I'm on the way, and not toggle talk anyone else. And if someone is
close and hears a sunstone, I'd expect them to say they are close and
will get the fallen. It's irritating to go far out of your way to get
someone, only to find they are already up. If I can't go to get someone,
I asked them to toggle if they want me to sunstone and if no one is on
the way. I don't usually sunstone a location unless I get that toggle.
Anyway, that's what I do. I'm sure there are lots of different methods.

Lorikeet<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <beed519e.0311121550.7b56be10 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>,
Azriel_CL RemoveThis @lycos.com (Azriel) wrote:

 > This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER do do with Portals, so all of you who are
 > tired of that topic, take heart!
 >
 > I had an odd experience today that lead me to think there may be
 > different, unspoken etiquette styles for toggling, and that folks
 > expecting their style get annoyed when you use a different one. No,
 > not the dreaded half-toggle!

Hey, that reminds me -- in the Toggle-talk that is "toggle=yes,
no-toggle=no", how does one say "uh... beats me!" or "well, sort-of, but
not exaactly"?

You'd think it wouldn't matter that much, but I'm constantly amazed at
how often it comes up. More often, the "I don't know" one, but
not-infrequently the "well, sort-of, but probably not what you're
thinking" one, too.

I typically do no-toggle for both, but I'm amazed at how often people
get all hard-headed about taking that as "absolutely not, no way,
nut-uh, forget it", when that's not really the case. I used to try to
be clever and do things like "/unshare... <very long pause> /share", but
was always surprized at how many people took that to mean "absolutely
dead-on, you got it, 100%."

Here's one example, although there are many others: start in E-field, go
E, N, N, N, N & fall. Someone thinks "are you East of town?" Well,
yeah, sort-a. And a little North... more "Northeast", really...

Or the undine hut -- is that E or N?

More commonly, I'm just lost, out exploring and have no idea where I am.
Like, once I start wandering around in the passes -- I usually start in
mid-pass, but then go N, S, E, W so often that I often don't know where
I am -- I could be in the S-pass exit snell, for all I know, but I only
know that I started in mid-pass and wandered around. "Are you in
mid-pass?" How does one answer that?

Is there a commonly-accepted way to toggle "don't know" or "sort-a but
not really"?

Thanks!

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <HelpfulGM-27F658.17083512112003 RemoveThis @sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
 > Hey, that reminds me -- in the Toggle-talk that is "toggle=yes,
 > no-toggle=no", how does one say "uh... beats me!" or "well, sort-of, but
 > not exaactly"?

It's always best not to toggle if you're not sure. Unless you're sure
that a yes answer will bring them through the location you're at on the
way to where you toggled you'd be :)

The ability to find someone lost with toggle talk is an art not a
science, especially in the really complicated cases. My guide on toggle
locating covers some alternate approaches, but there's no real official
way to do it, a lot of times you just have to play it by ear. The real
keys to locating someone are to know their habits and their skill level.
It makes it a ton easier to find someone if you know they're low level
and are likely to fall close to town, or if you know they're a coin
whore and spend most of their time in the standard coin whoring spots.
Thankfully knowing what someone fell to will often narrow things down
specifically, and my personal favorite is to ask about the color of the
terrain- that can sometimes narrow things down quite a bit, and is
something even a completely newbie can usually answer.

 > Here's one example, although there are many others: start in E-field, go
 > E, N, N, N, N & fall. Someone thinks "are you East of town?" Well,
 > yeah, sort-a. And a little North... more "Northeast", really...
 >
 > Or the undine hut -- is that E or N?

Both. A lot of places are two directions, in which case typically
toggling for either will suffice. Some people are better about that than
others.

 > More commonly, I'm just lost, out exploring and have no idea where I am.
 > Like, once I start wandering around in the passes -- I usually start in
 > mid-pass, but then go N, S, E, W so often that I often don't know where
 > I am -- I could be in the S-pass exit snell, for all I know, but I only
 > know that I started in mid-pass and wandered around. "Are you in
 > mid-pass?" How does one answer that?

If you don't know, don't toggle yes. If someone has discerned that
you're in the passes and starts asking which one, and they're anything
like me, they're probably already on their way and are likely to check
them all, but will keep asking questions to try to narrow it down in an
attempt to save time. If I'm trying to locate someone in South Forest
and I ask which column they're in, I don't always expect them to know,
but if they do it's still a time saver.

 > Is there a commonly-accepted way to toggle "don't know" or "sort-a but
 > not really"?

It's always best not to toggle unless you're fairly sure the answer is
yes. Toggling like mad is usually the accepted approach to letting the
rescuer know you made a mistake and the person should confirm what they
think they know.

-SWC Kiriel D'Sol

-- Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for
something, sometime in thy life.... -Elminster of Shadowdale<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Toggle Etiquette 

Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message news:<HelpfulGM-27F658.17083512112003.RemoveThis@sea-read.news.verio.net>...
 > Hey, that reminds me -- in the Toggle-talk that is "toggle=yes,
 > no-toggle=no", how does one say "uh... beats me!" or "well, sort-of, but
 > not exaactly"?
 >
 > You'd think it wouldn't matter that much, but I'm constantly amazed at
 > how often it comes up. More often, the "I don't know" one, but
 > not-infrequently the "well, sort-of, but probably not what you're
 > thinking" one, too.

Decide which answer would be more helpful to the person you're
toggling. It helps to know your healer! If you're fallen the snell
south of kitty beach, and I ask if you're fallen at kitty beach, a yes
answer is helpful. I'll go to kitty beach, not find you there, and
then ask myself why you "sent" me there.

 > Here's one example, although there are many others: start in E-field, go
 > E, N, N, N, N & fall. Someone thinks "are you East of town?" Well,
 > yeah, sort-a. And a little North... more "Northeast", really...
 >
 > Or the undine hut -- is that E or N?

I consider "northeast" field part of East field, even though they are
two separate snells, so for me the undine hut is east. I'd also
consider all of East Forest east. There's this nice fence separating
NE field from North Forest, so north of that fence for me is north,
including Lily Pond, which sets a clear eastern barrier as well. I'd
prefer to think of Tanglewood and Northern Plains as east (since I
have to get through Greater East Field to get there), but alot of
people toggle them north, so either for those.

(East is better for Plains, though: if you're fallen to an artak, and
you toggle east, the location is much more obvious than if you toggle
north.)

 > More commonly, I'm just lost, out exploring and have no idea where I am.
 > Like, once I start wandering around in the passes -- I usually start in
 > mid-pass, but then go N, S, E, W so often that I often don't know where
 > I am -- I could be in the S-pass exit snell, for all I know, but I only
 > know that I started in mid-pass and wandered around. "Are you in
 > mid-pass?" How does one answer that?

I'll admit I tend to assume fallens know where they are. I tend to be
late asking if they don't know exactly where they are, and I'm not
practiced in asking for background terrain.

 >
 > Is there a commonly-accepted way to toggle "don't know" or "sort-a but
 > not really"?

For "don't know" don't toggle. I consider toggling = "yes" or "good
enough"; not toggling is the absence of "yes".

For "sort-a but not really" it depends on how much "sort-a" vs. how
much "not really". :)

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Toggle Etiquette 

Helpful GM wrote:

 >
 > Is there a commonly-accepted way to toggle "don't know" or "sort-a but
 > not really"?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 >

If someone I'm toggle-talking isn't responding the way I'd expect, I often
ask for a toggle for "Do you know where you are?" If they toggle no, then
I can ask more open-ended questions. (Are you in the passes somewhere?) I
have also had people toggle lots of times, to sort of mean, "Oh no, you got
it wrong please start over" in which case I've asked if I should start
over.

Works better if you can ask a mystic ;)

Lorikeet<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <beed519e.0311121550.7b56be10.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
Azriel_CL.RemoveThis@lycos.com (Azriel) wrote:

 > My question is this, do folks asking for toggles really expect that
 > fallens will do "excusive toggles" to the first person to ask, or do
 > you assume that fallens will toggle whoever asks, for as long as they
 > ask, until they are actually raised? Is this a healer- versus
 > fighter-expectation thing? Are healers all quietly simmering in
 > resentment over being called for help and then not getting the raise?

Toggles happen. If I get toggled info about a fallen and head that way,
I'm not upset that someone beat me to it. Stuff happens. Sometimes, we
healers race to the fallens. It's all part of the service. :)

In fact, being gracious about it usually gets me another "log on share",
whereby people share me when I just log in. That's really nice. I
generally go out of my way to help them when I see them fallen too, so
it works to both our advantage.

My two coins...

--
Merlisk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundragonclan.com/merlisk/" target="_blank">http://www.sundragonclan.com/merlisk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: CL: Toggle Etiquette 

Azriel <Azriel_CL.DeleteThis@lycos.com> wrote:

 > I _think_ Exile 1 was expecting an exclusive toggle; that is, that any
 > fallen toggling her was clearly not answering anyone else, and was
 > inviting her to do the rescue personally. Being fallen, my selfish
 > interest is in getting raised as fast as possible, by whoever, and so
 > I toggle anyone who asks and am glad to see whoever shows up. I
 > thought all exiles are in my camp on this, but I'm not so sure now.

This person is what you would call an "idiot".

And just use ICQ to avoid shit like. I cant remember the last time I
had to toggle someone.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > More commonly, I'm just lost, out exploring and have no idea where I am.
 > Like, once I start wandering around in the passes -- I usually start in
 > mid-pass, but then go N, S, E, W so often that I often don't know where
 > I am -- I could be in the S-pass exit snell, for all I know, but I only
 > know that I started in mid-pass and wandered around. "Are you in
 > mid-pass?" How does one answer that?

Way back when I fell in Spirit Wood, and I had NO fucking idea where I
was. Tara asked me if I was in the "passes", and since there was that
tree tunnle thing in SW I thought that must be the pass so I toggled
yes.

I think I was drifting before anyone found me.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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 > And just use ICQ to avoid shit like. I cant remember the last time I
 > had to toggle someone.

ICQ is why I no longer advise JM to train locating. There's still some
business left, mostly finding newbies and lowbies, but most of the
location work has dried up.

The GM's could fix this, by the way. And no, it doesn't involve
interfering with ICQ in any way. But I doubt they want to deal with the
fallout of locating getting harder.

-jrr<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <jeff.ray-98DF69.15561214112003.RemoveThis@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
Jeff Ray <jeff.ray.RemoveThis@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:

  > > And just use ICQ to avoid shit like. I cant remember the last time I
  > > had to toggle someone.
 >
 > ICQ is why I no longer advise JM to train locating. There's still some
 > business left, mostly finding newbies and lowbies, but most of the
 > location work has dried up.

Locating has other, better uses.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.RemoveThis@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <1g4f8b8.rhrg7c1dxz9q8N%mike17032@aol.com>,
mike17032 RemoveThis @aol.com (Michael) wrote:

 > Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
  > > More commonly, I'm just lost, out exploring and have no idea where I am.
  > > Like, once I start wandering around in the passes -- I usually start in
  > > mid-pass, but then go N, S, E, W so often that I often don't know where
  > > I am -- I could be in the S-pass exit snell, for all I know, but I only
  > > know that I started in mid-pass and wandered around. "Are you in
  > > mid-pass?" How does one answer that?

 > Way back when I fell in Spirit Wood, and I had NO fucking idea where I
 > was. Tara asked me if I was in the "passes", and since there was that
 > tree tunnle thing in SW I thought that must be the pass so I toggled
 > yes.
 >
 > I think I was drifting before anyone found me.
 >
 > Michael

Well, of course, there should be a separate Toggle-Zo-talk, with
complately different meanings :)

Helpful "West! I mean South!" GM

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Jeff Ray <jeff.ray RemoveThis @dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<jeff.ray-98DF69.15561214112003 RemoveThis @ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>...
  > > And just use ICQ to avoid shit like. I cant remember the last time I
  > > had to toggle someone.
 >
 > ICQ is why I no longer advise JM to train locating. There's still some
 > business left, mostly finding newbies and lowbies, but most of the
 > location work has dried up.

Hmm, I still seem to get alot of location work. I hope I haven't
taken away a significant share of your business! :)

Anyways, I don't use ICQ at all, so others who don't are welcome to
share me. :)

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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