Clan Lord vs. Graal

In article <dog-63535B.22203920092003.TakeThisOut@news05.east.earthlink.net>,
JS <dog.TakeThisOut@stretch.com> wrote:

 > I'm in my upper 20s, so I'm looking for a bit more substance....

Depending on what you mean by "substance", CL is either your dream come
true or absolute skin and bones. CL is a great game, both in terms of
roleplaying environment and game mechanics, but most of the social/RP
stuff comes from the players, and very little from the "world". If
you're a Bartle explorer, you'll loathe it, but if you're a
socializer/achiever you'll find yourself in a paradise.

 > But since I'm "new to fantasy" I'm looking for a decent, helpful
 > community as well....

Then you'll find no better than Clan Lord out there.

 > There doesn't have to be a huge number of people online, but I'm
 > leery of spending the $$$ and finding a ghosttown.

This is pretty widely variable. Sometimes you can find as many as 65 to
80, sometimes only in the 20's. But when the player count is low, they
tend to hang around the center of town and socialize, so the population
density is fairly consistant.

 > (I only mention that because many of the CL websited that I've googled
 > are from 1999.)

The only websites I'd trust to be reasonably up to date are the
ThoomCare� Media Network (updated at least once daily, almost always
more) at <http://www.thoomcare.com/> and the Winds of Dawn Clan site at
<http://www.windsofdawn.org/>. There are also several good forums, where
the majority of the good info is to be found, but not much will make
sense until you've played a bit.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.TakeThisOut@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Give a man some nuts, and he'll eat for a day.
Kick him in the nuts, and he'll forget about eating."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Clan Lord vs. Graal 

In article <dog-63535B.22203920092003 DeleteThis @news05.east.earthlink.net>, JS
<dog DeleteThis @stretch.com> wrote:

 > I'm in my upper 20s, so I'm looking for a bit more substance....
 > But since I'm "new to fantasy" I'm looking for a decent, helpful
 > community as well.... There doesn't have to be a huge number of people
 > online, but I'm leery of spending the $$$ and finding a ghosttown.
 > (I only mention that because many of the CL websited that I've googled
 > are from 1999.)
 >
 > What do you suggest?

I don't know Graal, but my experience of MMORPGs other than clan lord
(which is very limited, so maybe my opinion ain't worth much) is that
most of them are of the kind you attribute to Graal. Clan Lord is...
different. Folks are (mostly) friendly and helpful, the game is fun,
and while there may not be as many exiles around at any given time as
some folks would like, there's usually enough to keep folks coming
back.

Check out <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.windsofdawn.org" target="_blank">http://www.windsofdawn.org</a> for a site that's pretty current.
There's also the Puddleby Scroll Archive ( <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.puddleby.info" target="_blank">http://www.puddleby.info</a> ),
my own clan's site ( <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://openhands.puddleby.info" target="_blank">http://openhands.puddleby.info</a> ) and TMN - the
Thoomcare Media Network ( <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thoomcare.com" target="_blank">http://www.thoomcare.com</a> ), among others.
You'll find quite a few dead links here and there, but also a lot of
current ones, as well.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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JS wrote:

 >
 > I was wondering about the comparison between ClanLord and Graal.
 > The demo version of ClanLord doesn't really show much in the way of
 > gameplay, and the demo version of Graal, while visually impressive,
 > seemed to be nothing more than a bunch of Kiddies shooting and slashing.
 > Although like CL, the demo is somewhat limited to those areas where the
 > slasher kiddies hang out.

As with the others that responded, I hadn't heard of Graal. When I did a
search for it, I had to wade through a few thousand cheat/hack sites to
find it. That seems like a pretty bad sign to me.



 > I'm in my upper 20s, so I'm looking for a bit more substance....

Most MMORPGs have an average age around 20, I would guess the average in
Clanlord to be closer to 30. Its a little more mature community, you will
almost never see anyone using leet-speak (spelling with numbers instead of
letters). There is a focus on roleplaying in Clanlord, though it isn't
required. If you enjoy roleplaying, you shouldn't have too hard of a time
finding people to roleplay with. If you don't like roleplaying much, you
will do fine as long as you don't talk about computers, cars, sports, etc.
while sitting in Town Center.


 > But since I'm "new to fantasy" I'm looking for a decent, helpful
 > community as well.... There doesn't have to be a huge number of people
 > online, but I'm leery of spending the $$$ and finding a ghosttown.
 > (I only mention that because many of the CL websited that I've googled
 > are from 1999.)

At 3AM PST, the population in CL usually drops to 5-20. At peak times, the
population is about 50-100. There are about 1000 players, some play every
day, others just once a week.

People typically play in groups of 1-8, but sometimes much larger groups
form. Just a couple days ago, a group of about 60 gathered together for a
trip to a difficult and hard to reach area.


 >
 > What do you suggest?

I've played 8 MMORPGs, but I keep coming back to Clanlord. Clanlord has
kept me (and others) playing for 5+ years, while no other game has held my
attention for more than 6 months, and most for far less than that.

One of the things that keeps me playing CL is that there are areas and
secrets that can take years to figure out or conquer. In any other game I
have played, new areas are discovered, figured out and conquered in a
matter of days/weeks.

A few other games you may want to look at:

Lineage: Focus on hack/slash with some politics
Shadowbane: Focus on player-killing and politics, with hack/slash.
Everquest: Focus on hack/slash.
Worlds of Warcraft: Will be released in about 6 months.

Good luck. Hope to see you around Clanlord.

Baff<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <3F6D2960.5683ABC2 DeleteThis @gemmary.JUNK.com>,
Baff <baff DeleteThis @gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote:

 > Lineage: Focus on hack/slash with some politics
 > Shadowbane: Focus on player-killing and politics, with hack/slash.
 > Everquest: Focus on hack/slash.

The funny thing about all three of those games, is that none of them
have graphics that hold up well to the clean-drawn sprites of CL. And
quite frankly, none of them do "hack/slash" as well.

 > Worlds of Warcraft: Will be released in about 6 months.

Yeah, in Bizarro Land where Blizzard doesn't take forever to do
everything (not that that's a bad thing, mind you). I project a 2005
release date for WoW. MAYBE late 2004. The beta is scheduled to start in
1-3 months, and it promises to be a long one.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden DeleteThis @noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Give a man some nuts, and he'll eat for a day.
Kick him in the nuts, and he'll forget about eating."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Hidden wrote:

 > If you're a Bartle explorer, you'll loathe it...

Oh? I thought you were a Bartle explorer, and you have been playing for
years.

I'm 93% E, 66% A, 33% S, 7% K. I have yet to find another game with
long-term exploration.

I'll grant you that some exploration in CL can be highly frustrating, but
still far better than any other game I have played, so maybe it is a
love/loathe thing...

Baff<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <3F6D2E74.AEFBF998.TakeThisOut@gemmary.JUNK.com>,
Baff <baff.TakeThisOut@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote:

 > Hidden wrote:
 >
  > > If you're a Bartle explorer, you'll loathe it...
 >
 > Oh? I thought you were a Bartle explorer, and you have been playing for
 > years.

I also have fairly high A/S percentages, and I originally played it as
an entirely social game, since you can't do that much exploring as a
newbie.

 > I'm 93% E, 66% A, 33% S, 7% K. I have yet to find another game with
 > long-term exploration.

Long term or glacial? I also have a problem with GMs handing us things
that were supposedly "quests" on a silver platter. All three of the "big
mysteries" that were around in my early days (mirrors, alchemy hut,
Qual) finished with a pffthrpt, instead of a BANG!

 > I'll grant you that some exploration in CL can be highly frustrating, but
 > still far better than any other game I have played, so maybe it is a
 > love/loathe thing...

I've played better exploration games, but most of them were MUDs, and
the rest single player. I'll grant that CL does it better than any other
MMORPG, though World of Warcraft may change that.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.TakeThisOut@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Give a man some nuts, and he'll eat for a day.
Kick him in the nuts, and he'll forget about eating."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <kirielspam-0F36EF.19505620092003@localhost>,
Kiriel D'Sol <kirielspam.RemoveThis@windsofdawn.org> wrote:

 > Never played Graal. ClanLord is a great game but suffers from a garage
 > company environment, which although nice in many ways, hampers the speed
 > of change to the game and contributes to a small population.

Thing is though that in Clan Lord you may only have 50 people on, but
you *know* most if not all of them even if it's just their name and a
few previous meetings. A lot will be "friends". In the larger games with
thousands of players.. when do you hang out with more than a couple
dozen at a time anyway? etc.

So in that sense it really doesn't matter, to me at least, that there
are so few players in CL (if 1000+ total counts as a few) because in CL
"everybody knows your name"... like the friendly neighborhood bar.

You should check it out.

:-)

--
Bang a rang!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Well from the postings here, I've decided to check it out. I paid
with PayPal this afternoon and I'm patiently awaiting my password.

Thanks for the info everyone! You all have been very helpful (and you
deserve a commission on the sale!)

I'll see you soon!
 >> Stay informed about: Clan Lord vs. Graal 

On 9/20/03 9:51 PM, in article hidden-FE4BD2.21511820092003@localhost,
"Hidden" <hidden.DeleteThis@noDASHop.com> wrote:

 > In article <3F6D2960.5683ABC2.DeleteThis@gemmary.JUNK.com>,
 > Baff <baff.DeleteThis@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote:
 >
  >> Lineage: Focus on hack/slash with some politics
  >> Shadowbane: Focus on player-killing and politics, with hack/slash.
  >> Everquest: Focus on hack/slash.
 >
 > The funny thing about all three of those games, is that none of them
 > have graphics that hold up well to the clean-drawn sprites of CL. And
 > quite frankly, none of them do "hack/slash" as well.
 >
  >> Worlds of Warcraft: Will be released in about 6 months.
 >
 > Yeah, in Bizarro Land where Blizzard doesn't take forever to do
 > everything (not that that's a bad thing, mind you). I project a 2005
 > release date for WoW. MAYBE late 2004. The beta is scheduled to start in
 > 1-3 months, and it promises to be a long one.

I just read something interesting about WoW that pertains to all this WC
conflict. In WoW the tough places will be able to create 'instances' of
themselves. So PMF could have a WC, another group could come right after
and get a second WC to play in, etc, etc, each mutually exclusive. In the
other MMORPGs I've played camping and the territorialism that go with it are
about places with beasts with great experience and huge drops. In CL we
bicker about places with no drops and you'll probably loose experience going
there. That say something about something but I'm not sure what. But the
WoW 'instances' idea would fix either.

Speaking to JS:

I think players are older in CL then other games I've seen, but they are
also Mac users and I think that is makes difference too, chauvinist that I
am. If you read our NG here you will see that we get mad and rant for sure.
But where else will you find a game NG post about the subspecies of
ad-hominem arguments (with citations!)? The NG's associated with the other
games I've played are filled with, 'I killed a blah, with my blah sword and
got a blah.' Followed by, 'You Noob, I killed a blah blah, with my blah blah
sword and got a blah blah.' Followed by, 'You Noob,....' etc. And in game
it is just more of the same. There are games out there with all the things
we CL players have bitched for for years: weapons and armor by the hundreds
(many craftable), dozens of spells, range weapons, tools to have group wars,
economies were you can buy and sell thousands of different things, etc, etc.
CL has some things to brag about too, like a very clean interface, but (even
though I always play CL with a group of reclusive miscreants) I have to say
that the people in CL make the difference.

The only cloud on CL's horizon it seems to me is the slowly dwindling
population. In general though I read all MMORPGs are suffering. They aren't
proving to be the next great wave of gaming everyone predicted. My guess is
that with the occasional latency issues inherent in the internet the
precision response real game addicts want just isn't there. Eventually too
many lag deaths just drives people away.

HWC PolyChrome<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <BB937502.1168D%hgrage@eoni.com>,
Hans Grage <hgrage.DeleteThis@eoni.com> wrote:

 > The only cloud on CL's horizon it seems to me is the slowly dwindling
 > population. In general though I read all MMORPGs are suffering. They aren't
 > proving to be the next great wave of gaming everyone predicted. My guess is
 > that with the occasional latency issues inherent in the internet the
 > precision response real game addicts want just isn't there. Eventually too
 > many lag deaths just drives people away.

My guess is it's the fact that there has yet to be a really fun MMORPG,
and won't be until someone eliminates the levelling treadmill.

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden.DeleteThis@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Give a man some nuts, and he'll eat for a day.
Kick him in the nuts, and he'll forget about eating."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Clan Lord vs. Graal 

In article <hidden-BD2C86.16005221092003@localhost>,
Hidden <hidden.RemoveThis@noDASHop.com> wrote:

 > My guess is it's the fact that there has yet to be a really fun MMORPG,
 > and won't be until someone eliminates the levelling treadmill.

I *STILL* say that the best way to do that is to have a decent way for
high level characters to "retire" into legendary status and, rather than
putting big effort into developing an ever bigger/higher-level world,
work on making the one you have ever-more-interesting, with dynamic,
living (, continuing!) stories.

I pray to Mai that it's possible to do in Helpful-Lord...

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <BB937502.1168D%hgrage@eoni.com>,
Hans Grage <hgrage.DeleteThis@eoni.com> wrote:

 > In WoW the tough places will be able to create 'instances' of
 > themselves. So PMF could have a WC, another group could come right after
 > and get a second WC to play in, etc, etc, each mutually exclusive.

The whole point of an MMORPG is to interact with others, meet new
people, form alliances and enemies etc. etc. ad naseum.

I think if you really want your own "instances", of KI for example, then
you should SACWAG or pay DT a fat licensing fee and run a Pogue Lord
server in your bedroom that only PM could log on to.

Anyway, interesting concepts to be sure, but if whole chunks of CL's
population go away to be their own "instances" CL won't last long at all.

--
Bang a rang!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <jazz-C57901.10204522092003 DeleteThis @news.spiralewb.com>,
Jazz <jazz DeleteThis @biteme.coreaddicts.com> wrote:

 > In article <BB937502.1168D%hgrage@eoni.com>,
 > Hans Grage <hgrage DeleteThis @eoni.com> wrote:
  > > In WoW the tough places will be able to create 'instances' of
  > > themselves. So PMF could have a WC, another group could come right after
  > > and get a second WC to play in, etc, etc, each mutually exclusive.

 > The whole point of an MMORPG is to interact with others, meet new
 > people, form alliances and enemies etc. etc. ad naseum.

And that there be a persistant [at least someone consistant] world.

A world where areas come & go according to if different groups are on
strikes me as more BattleZone-esque, just with bigger areas.

Is Hans' description of WoW accurate? That doesn't sound MMORPG-ish at
all...

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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