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Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10)

 
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Author Message
George K.

External


Since: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:22 pm
Post subject: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10)
Archived from groups: comp>sys>mac>hardware>storage (more info?)

I managed to replace my dual G5's System drive with a mirrored RAID of
higher capacity. It took 96 hours, and three different FireWire
external HDs, until I found one that would boot the Mac with the
original system HD removed.

The approach taken: I cloned my System HD to an exteral FireWire HD
with Carbon Copy Cloner. I removed the System HD and tested whether
the external cloned drive will indeed boot the Mac. After finding one
that did, I installed two new, empty 400 Gig SATA drives into the
Mac's case, I set them up as a mirrored RAID with Disk Utility and
cloned the contents of the System HD back to this RAID from the
external FireWire drive.

The results are not encouraging. My original system drive was 160
Gigs, and it had 80 Gigs of files. After cloning these 80 Gigs back to
the RAID, now Get Info says my 400 Gigs RAID has 300 Gigs of files.
And all my preferences, passwords, Net bookmarks, Apple Loops and such
things vanished. (It's all retrievable, I still have the original,
removed OS drive, but still... sheesh.) When I try to see what these
supposed 300 Gigs of files consist of by double-clicking the RAID, the
folders in its window sum up to only 27 Gigs total. There's nothing
else on the desktop and there are no other users on this system whose
files could be hidden to me.

Anyone has a hunch what's going on here? The result makes me suspect
if the RAID function of OSX supports only 24-bit addressing (<120 Gig
HDs) for the System drive, or some similar defect.

Maybe I should give up on the RAID idea, and just use a file
synchronizing utility? I only wanted the RAID to have a second HD
ready in case my OS drive crashes. But a syncronizing program wouldn't
copy hidden system files, would it. Or if it would, since the two HDs
would have separate names, those system files still may or may not
work. What's the solution?

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dg

External


Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 15



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:33 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 7, 3:22 pm, "George K." <mrdel....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I managed to replace my dual G5's System drive with a mirrored RAID of
> higher capacity. It took 96 hours, and three different FireWire
> external HDs, until I found one that would boot the Mac with the
> original system HD removed.
>
> The approach taken: I cloned my System HD to an exteral FireWire HD
> with Carbon Copy Cloner. I removed the System HD and tested whether
> the external cloned drive will indeed boot the Mac. After finding one
> that did, I installed two new, empty 400 Gig SATA drives into the
> Mac's case, I set them up as a mirrored RAID with Disk Utility and
> cloned the contents of the System HD back to this RAID from the
> external FireWire drive.
>
> The results are not encouraging. My original system drive was 160
> Gigs, and it had 80 Gigs of files. After cloning these 80 Gigs back to
> the RAID, now Get Info says my 400 Gigs RAID has 300 Gigs of files.
> And all my preferences, passwords, Net bookmarks, Apple Loops and such
> things vanished. (It's all retrievable, I still have the original,
> removed OS drive, but still... sheesh.) When I try to see what these
> supposed 300 Gigs of files consist of by double-clicking the RAID, the
> folders in its window sum up to only 27 Gigs total. There's nothing
> else on the desktop and there are no other users on this system whose
> files could be hidden to me.
>
> Anyone has a hunch what's going on here? The result makes me suspect
> if the RAID function of OSX supports only 24-bit addressing (<120 Gig
> HDs) for the System drive, or some similar defect.
>
> Maybe I should give up on the RAID idea, and just use a file
> synchronizing utility? I only wanted the RAID to have a second HD
> ready in case my OS drive crashes. But a syncronizing program wouldn't
> copy hidden system files, would it. Or if it would, since the two HDs
> would have separate names, those system files still may or may not
> work. What's the solution?

Keep in mind that many, if not most, of the problems that would cause
your system drive to crash [ex., drive firmware errors, drive
controller hardware or firmware errors, poorly implemented system or
program write errors] will induce errors which will simply be
replicated to the system's mirror drive. A mirror produces a mirror-
image, after all. Worse, [to cite a specific example] system errors
during replication of the data can induce data errors in the metadata
fork, thus the RAID 1 array actually has a higher probability of
creating problems with things like permissions. This is one reason
software-based RAID, while nifty in theory, has not put the hardware
card makers out of business. Data integrity on the hard disk is
important and can quickly become difficult to repair in UNIX-based
operating systems and Journalized file systems and Apple file system
structures, all of which conditions apply to OS 10.4 by default.

But speaking of permissions, you did scan for permissions errors /
violations, didn't you?

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George K.

External


Since: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

CarbonCopy has an option to fix permissions before cloning. It was
turned on.

So if a software RAID makes my system HD less, not more stable, what
approach should I take? My main reason for a spare is, it took me
years and years to tweak the system HD into its current form. Its
specialized work files took endless sessions to pick, assemble and
refine from a pool of quarter a million. (The file list binder alone
is 4" thick.) It's this intricate arrangement of work files, most of
which OSX insists on keeping in various peculiar corners of its system
drive, that make me want to create a spare as recreating this multi-
year effort when the drive fails.

(Of course, the idea of being able to just harness over and keep
riding on a second drive if the first drive crashes has some allure to
it too... :-)
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George K.

External


Since: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:02 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I found the cause of the missing 300 Gigs of HD space! My bad, it's
not a RAID issue at all. My HD had 300 Gigs of hidden trash files from
a MacForensics session of a few days ago which hanged. (I tried to
revive my portable Mac HD with the program. The drive became corrupted
and crashed on a WinXP box as I was expanding a 1 Gig archive. None of
my usual OSX and XP recovery apps could help it.)

A wonderful script by a gentleman named Hal on macfixitforums.com

sudo -v; sudo find -xf /.Trashes /Volumes /Library /private /Temp* \
-type f -size +200000 -print0 | sudo xargs -0 ls -lohdSr

quickly found those hidden Trash files once copied and pasted into
Terminal. (A big kudos to Hal!) There was no blurb on how to nuke
hidden Trash files once they are found, so I just plowed the whole
drive under with formatting, re-cloned the System drive, (this time
with the latest CarbonCopy 3.01 version). It straightened the free
space count out right away.

So I got my OSX system Drive RAID and it works fine. It was an
adventurous week
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dg

External


Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 15



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:57 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 8, 7:15 pm, "George K." <mrdel... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> CarbonCopy has an option to fix permissions before cloning. It was
> turned on.
>
> So if a software RAID makes my system HD less, not more stable, what
> approach should I take? My main reason for a spare is, it took me
> years and years to tweak the system HD into its current form. Its
> specialized work files took endless sessions to pick, assemble and
> refine from a pool of quarter a million. (The file list binder alone
> is 4" thick.) It's this intricate arrangement of work files, most of
> which OSX insists on keeping in various peculiar corners of its system
> drive, that make me want to create a spare as recreating this multi-
> year effort when the drive fails.
>
> (Of course, the idea of being able to just harness over and keep
> riding on a second drive if the first drive crashes has some allure to
> it too... :-)

Okay, you verified permissions before cloning, but did you very
permissions on your system once it was running from the mirrored drive
array? Some of the permissions will have changed due to the mirror,
and some permissions will have changed due to the larger hard drive
(at least, this is my "guess", as every time I've changed the size of
the hard drive being cloned to, permissions have had to be corrected).

Things you want to do:
1) Not loose an intricate arrangement of files and structures built up
over a period of years.
a. Back-up your documents frequently; given the volume of old
documents, you may want to do this as an incremental back-up.
b. Back-up your system and programs periodically; when there is a
change to your system or a program (i.e., new version), clone off a
copy you can recover from.
2) Make sure your back-up routine works.
a. I have seen major corporations lose years of expensive information
because they did not test to see if the back-up system they
implemented was actually capable of working.
b. Make sure you can keep up with your back-up strategy, i.e., you
need to have enough time to perform back-ups and space to store those
back-ups over time.
3) How frequently are changes made to:
a. Your operating system (including scripts added to the OS for added/
modified functioning)
b. Your programs (including scripts, palettes, suitcases, yada-yada)
c. Your data-sets (including get results, retained grep results from
currently available data, new pictures or pages, outputs retained from
modifying existing pictures or pages, etc. -- whatever it is you're
doing, how frequently does it change the non-operating system, non-
program data on your hard-drive into information? We're going to call
these your documents.)
4) Consider how frequently you merge data from your drives with other
repositories, CVS for instance, where other people may work on the
same over-all structure or even share specific tasks' details with
you? Do you need to synchronize with on-line (or off-line)
repositories?

Unix can make a hash of things if the system does not succeed in
copying all data from the storage and data I/O to the hard drive,
which is why most Unix systems that implement RAID not only use
hardware RAID controllers but use hardware RAID controllers which have
their own independent battery back-up, so that if power (for instance)
fails or the disk-write system fails, the data in the RAID
controller's cache remains there. People have thought about this
stuff, and through trial and error have got us where we are both in
philosophy and fine details; you might want to look at what's on the
market (RAID / data-storage), how it is supposed to work, and why it
is supposed to work that way--don't go nuts making a new job of it,
but maybe 20-or-30-minutes a day until you're comfortable with it.

My personal tip? Don't try to look at it from a bottom-up view, start
with a top-down view--look at the big servers, the big storage
arrays. Spend a couple sessions looking at the features offered by
one of SGI's big boxes, for instance, and work your way down their
catalog... then jump over to HP's corporate-server catalog... then
jump over to Dell's small-business catalog. By the time you've gotten
through those three vendors, you'll have a good idea of how this stuff
has scaled from large-to-small, and by the time you're in Dell's small-
business catalog, you'll actually be looking at hardware very
comparable to your dual-G5 tower. Expect along the way to spend a
session over at wikipedia learning what the terms you ran into last-
session mean, especially at first. Now you can look at what people
trying to take the bottom-up view are trying to do with their
products, and make a lot better guess as to whether it will suit your
needs in a cost-effective way.

Consider for a minute what you seem to have (Dual G5 with years of
carefully structured data accumulated to work just-so) and compare it
to the standards of dedicated mainframe systems, such as what got us
to the moon or keep track of our money in a bank. You're really not
far off in complexity data-wise, and G5's are actually adapted from
IBM's prior-generation mainframe CPU's (which is why the G6 was going
to be such a massive performer--and is, in non-Apple HPC use now); so
really, just look at what they would do to preserve data and data
integrity in the sort of environments your hardware and data would
customarily receive, rather than what the software-users typically do
in isolation. Scary, isn't it?

BTW, when you talk about a hard-drive crash, do you mean an
unrecoverable it's-not-rebooting software error (which is how I
usually take it from users), a hard-drive head-crash (which is how I
usually take it in the trade), or something else still? I once had a
Dell Precision workstation with a pair of faulty half-height high-RPM
SCSI drives...when powered on, it would start walking across the
carpeted floor it stood on, at 2-3 inches per minute. At another time
and another place, I administered a machine that ran a custom-written
program that addressed data to exactly the same space on the hard-disk
and would not accept any other space...so when that sector of the
drive went bad, Windows mapped around it, but the program wouldn't and
kept using it...so after a couple of days it made a sound for about 20
minutes, like a power drill going through an oak door...and
died...with three years of un-backed-up OSHA and IRS required reports
on that drive. A badly-timed audit could've been a real problem, while
that drive was off getting SQUIDed. Too bad the corp didn't listen to
me when I (as a temp) told them they needed to order back-up media.
They replaced their tape back-up drive with a DVD-RAM back-up drive,
and never bought DVD-RAMs or a back-up program. They had a drawer
full of really nice new high-capacity tapes and a reputable program,
but no drive to use them--for three years.
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dg

External


Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 15



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:00 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 9, 12:02 pm, "George K." <mrdel... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> I found the cause of the missing 300 Gigs of HD space! My bad, it's
> not a RAID issue at all. My HD had 300 Gigs of hidden trash files from
> a MacForensics session of a few days ago which hanged. (I tried to
> revive my portable Mac HD with the program. The drive became corrupted
> and crashed on a WinXP box as I was expanding a 1 Gig archive. None of
> my usual OSX and XP recovery apps could help it.)
>
> A wonderful script by a gentleman named Hal on macfixitforums.com
>
> sudo -v; sudo find -xf /.Trashes /Volumes /Library /private /Temp* \
> -type f -size +200000 -print0 | sudo xargs -0 ls -lohdSr
>
> quickly found those hidden Trash files once copied and pasted into
> Terminal. (A big kudos to Hal!) There was no blurb on how to nuke
> hidden Trash files once they are found, so I just plowed the whole
> drive under with formatting, re-cloned the System drive, (this time
> with the latest CarbonCopy 3.01 version). It straightened the free
> space count out right away.
>
> So I got my OSX system Drive RAID and it works fine. It was an
> adventurous week

Neat, and congrats!
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dg

External


Since: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 15



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:02 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> Things you want to do:
> 1) Not loose an intricate arrangement of files and structures built up
> over a period of years.

I'm glad if you read the above, but dang I can go on forever! Sorry.
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George K.

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Since: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 9, 8:57 am, dg <david.good... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

< BTW, when you talk about a hard-drive crash, do you mean an
< unrecoverable it's-not-rebooting software error (which is how I
< usually take it from users), a hard-drive head-crash (which is how
I
< usually take it in the trade

By hard drive crash I referred to a genuine HD head (or chipset, or
other electronics part) crash. I have lost track how many HDs I ran
into ground since my Macintosh IIx days, but just a cursory glance
around my desk finds 4 dead ones. It's enough to understand that every
single HD I'm using right now will eventually fry. It's not an "if",
only a "when". Heck, I ran into ground even a handful of CD burners; I
burned so many hundreds discs on them, the laser beam couldn't focus
anymore. :-)

Software-caused hard drive crashes would not prompt me to spend a
whole week setting up a RAID. They are not more than the computer
equivalent of mosquito bites; I had hundreds before, and I'll likely
have hundreds after. One just takes a deep breath, applies the remedy
and continues.
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David Lesher

External


Since: Aug 04, 2003
Posts: 119



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Converting the Mac's System Drive into a RAID (OSX 10.4.10) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"George K." <mrdelurk.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> writes:

>I found the cause of the missing 300 Gigs of HD space! My bad, it's
>not a RAID issue at all. My HD had 300 Gigs of hidden trash files from
>a MacForensics session of a few days ago which hanged. (I tried to
>revive my portable Mac HD with the program. The drive became corrupted
>and crashed on a WinXP box as I was expanding a 1 Gig archive. None of
>my usual OSX and XP recovery apps could help it.)

>A wonderful script by a gentleman named Hal on macfixitforums.com

>sudo -v; sudo find -xf /.Trashes /Volumes /Library /private /Temp* \
>-type f -size +200000 -print0 | sudo xargs -0 ls -lohdSr

>quickly found those hidden Trash files once copied and pasted into
>Terminal. (A big kudos to Hal!) There was no blurb on how to nuke
>hidden Trash files once they are found,


"Hidden" in Unix means "doesn't show up unless you ask..."

If you had
cd /.Trashes

and did a
rm -r *
there, they would be history. [you might need to do it under a sudo,
or su as root before starting.]

And BTW, yep, you can break LOTS of things badly by not being careful.



--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz.DeleteThis@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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