Europa universalis II

in article bl5dq2$gpu$1@reader2.panix.com, Matt McLeod at matt DeleteThis @tinho.net
wrote on 9/27/03 6:33 PM:

 > In article <0001HW.BB9BCF67004D6D9BF0386600 DeleteThis @news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>,
 > Devi Jankowicz <animus DeleteThis @ntlworld.com> wrote:
  >> Can anyone tell me if there's a dedicated newsgroup for this game? I have
  >> some very newbie questions to ask.
 >
 > Not that I know of. There are the EU2 forums at
 > <http://www.europa-universalis.com/>...

I've been there and it looks interesting, but there isn't a lot there to
help a newbie get started. Most of those folks seem to have been playing for
a while and are into more esoteric issues than a newbie is ready for. I
didn't find the FAQ too helpful either.

 > ...here is about as good as you're going to find on Usenet.

Yeah, if you've got any questions bring 'em on. I might learn something too.

:-)

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Michael Emrys wrote:

 > in article bl5dq2$gpu$1@reader2.panix.com, Matt McLeod at matt RemoveThis @tinho.net
 > wrote on 9/27/03 6:33 PM:
 >
 >
  >>In article <0001HW.BB9BCF67004D6D9BF0386600 RemoveThis @news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>,
  >>Devi Jankowicz <animus RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote:
  >>
   >>>Can anyone tell me if there's a dedicated newsgroup for this game? I have
   >>>some very newbie questions to ask.
  >>
  >>Not that I know of. There are the EU2 forums at
  >><http://www.europa-universalis.com/>...
 >
 >
 > I've been there and it looks interesting, but there isn't a lot there to
 > help a newbie get started. Most of those folks seem to have been playing for
 > a while and are into more esoteric issues than a newbie is ready for. I
 > didn't find the FAQ too helpful either.

The FAQ? They've got a ton of them :-)
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87146" target="_blank">http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87146</a>

 >
 >
  >>...here is about as good as you're going to find on Usenet.
 >
 >
 > Yeah, if you've got any questions bring 'em on. I might learn something too.
 >
 > :-)

What they said.

/Per<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 8:56:06 +0100, Per Hagwall wrote
(in message <quwdb.30448$dP1.90702@newsc.telia.net>):

 > Michael Emrys wrote:
 >
  >> in article bl5dq2$gpu$1@reader2.panix.com, Matt McLeod at matt.DeleteThis@tinho.net
  >> wrote on 9/27/03 6:33 PM:
  >>
  >>
   >>> In article
   >>> <0001HW.BB9BCF67004D6D9BF0386600.DeleteThis@news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>,
   >>> Devi Jankowicz <animus.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>> Can anyone tell me if there's a dedicated newsgroup for this game? I have
   >>>> some very newbie questions to ask.
   >>>
   >>> Not that I know of. There are the EU2 forums at
   >>> <http://www.europa-universalis.com/>...
  >>
  >>
  >> I've been there and it looks interesting, but there isn't a lot there to
  >> help a newbie get started. Most of those folks seem to have been playing
  >> for
  >> a while and are into more esoteric issues than a newbie is ready for. I
  >> didn't find the FAQ too helpful either.
 >
 > The FAQ? They've got a ton of them :-)
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87146</font" target="_blank">http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=871...lt;/fon</a>>
 >
  >>
  >>
   >>> ...here is about as good as you're going to find on Usenet.
  >>
  >>
  >> Yeah, if you've got any questions bring 'em on. I might learn something
  >> too.
  >>
   >>> -)
 >
 > What they said.
 >
 > /Per
 >

Dear Mat, Michael and Per.

Okay: many thanks. Here goes.

I understand that you can't just enter onto another state's territory and
attack their army/naval vessel: you have to have a casus belli. Clearly, this
isn't Civilisation or Colonisation, the games I have most experience in!
Okay, so, playing Poland and making use of the existing casus belli I attack
Hinterpommern from Wielkopolska. I get defeated, and surrender. Next, I move
another army up from Krakow and try to attack Hinterpommern again, but all I
get is a red 'X'. Does surrender constitute a treaty that does away with the
casus belli?
And, more generally, where are the different casi belli, (causa belli?),
defined? Seems to me that a nation which had a reason for war and was
defeated would still harbour a grudge: so the game must use the term in a
specialised way.

Sorry this is so trivial, but they all say that the first few months on EU2
are the most confusing...

Kind regards,
Devi8 Jankowicz<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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in article 0001HW.BB9C716300571C5FF0386600 RemoveThis @news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com,
Devi Jankowicz at animus RemoveThis @ntlworld.com wrote on 9/28/03 3:07 AM:

 > I understand that you can't just enter onto another state's territory and
 > attack their army/naval vessel: you have to have a casus belli.

*And* a declaration of war. But if you started fighting, I guess you must
have had that.

 > Okay, so, playing Poland and making use of the existing casus belli I attack
 > Hinterpommern from Wielkopolska. I get defeated, and surrender. Next, I move
 > another army up from Krakow and try to attack Hinterpommern again, but all I
 > get is a red 'X'. Does surrender constitute a treaty that does away with the
 > casus belli?

Check to see if you have a truce. If so, that will have a specified duration
during which I don't think you can go to war again.

 > And, more generally, where are the different casi belli, (causa belli?),
 > defined?

In the manual. P. 55 defines some cases. Also check p. 48ff for additional
cases under the heading "PROVOCATIONS".

 > Seems to me that a nation which had a reason for war and was
 > defeated would still harbour a grudge...

Sometimes it does. There are usually some permanent CBs between some nations
at the start of the game that never go away unless one nation or the other
is totally defeated and annexed. Most of the wars that do not involve
permanent CBs are settled in the peace terms and no further CB derives from
that. A new CB between the same parties could arise for other reasons
however. My observation thus far is that most temporary CBs do not result in
war though, and expire peacefully.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <BB9C055F.18928%emrys@olypen.com>,
Michael Emrys <emrys.DeleteThis@olypen.com> wrote:
 >Sometimes it does. There are usually some permanent CBs between some nations
 >at the start of the game that never go away unless one nation or the other
 >is totally defeated and annexed.

There are a few permanent CBs, but not so many. The main ones I
can recall are England/Scotland and Spain's Native American CBs.

Most of what are called permanent CBs are actually attached to territory.
Each nation has "national provinces", and in some cases those start out
under the control of someone else -- e.g., Danzig is a Polish national
province, but belongs to Pommern.

 >Most of the wars that do not involve
 >permanent CBs are settled in the peace terms and no further CB derives from
 >that. A new CB between the same parties could arise for other reasons
 >however. My observation thus far is that most temporary CBs do not result in
 >war though, and expire peacefully.

Indeed. They can also be a right pain in the neck to get when you want
them, so I usually end up declaring war on the Lenape without one quite
quickly in order to secure Manhattan.

Matt

--
"Tell someone who doesn't regard you as an argument
for compulsory sterilization." -- TISM<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <bl6ja7$pt3$1@reader2.panix.com>,
Matt McLeod <matt.DeleteThis@tinho.net> wrote:
 >Most of what are called permanent CBs are actually attached to territory.
 >Each nation has "national provinces", and in some cases those start out
 >under the control of someone else -- e.g., Danzig is a Polish national
 >province, but belongs to Pommern.

Oops. Danzig belongs to Prussia at the start of the GC, not Pommern.
Poland's CB on Pommern is for Hinterpommern, of course.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend Poland as a first country for a newbie.
You've got the Hanseatic League, and the Teutons to deal with
right away -- both far more powerful than you are -- and then the
Ottoman Empire.

If you want to play in the East, Muscowy is a pretty reasonable choice.

Matt

--
"Stuff existentialism, I'm goin' back to momma"
-- TISM<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:18:52 +0100, Matt McLeod wrote
(in message <bl6jjc$q1b$1@reader2.panix.com>):

 > In article <bl6ja7$pt3$1@reader2.panix.com>,
 > Matt McLeod <matt.RemoveThis@tinho.net> wrote:
  >> Most of what are called permanent CBs are actually attached to territory.
  >> Each nation has "national provinces", and in some cases those start out
  >> under the control of someone else -- e.g., Danzig is a Polish national
  >> province, but belongs to Pommern.
 >
 > Oops. Danzig belongs to Prussia at the start of the GC, not Pommern.
 > Poland's CB on Pommern is for Hinterpommern, of course.
 >
 > BTW, I wouldn't recommend Poland as a first country for a newbie.
 > You've got the Hanseatic League, and the Teutons to deal with
 > right away -- both far more powerful than you are -- and then the
 > Ottoman Empire.
 >
 > If you want to play in the East, Muscowy is a pretty reasonable choice.
 >
 > Matt
 >
 >

Ah, well, with a Polish background, I would find that difficult! It was those
Muscovite b*s who took the elad in partitioning Poland in the 1770s, and I
hope to play to prevent it.

BUT
another major frustration.
I start, save, get on with real life, and then return to the game.
Go to the main scenario menu, choose the scenario in the top felt menu,
choose the Poland shield in the top right menu, then click on the 'Poland
1490' file in the bottom left hand corner. The startup screen starts,
initiates provinces, and then crashes while trying to laod the scenario.

Has anyone any thoughts: its very frustrating, as I have to start each game
from scratch.

I have a Powerbook G4, system 10.2.1, 256 MB memory and oodles of space on
the hard disc.

Kind regards,
Devi Jankowicz<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article
<0001HW.BB9C716300571C5FF0386600 RemoveThis @news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>,
Devi Jankowicz <animus RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote:

 > I understand that you can't just enter onto another state's territory and
 > attack their army/naval vessel: you have to have a casus belli.

No, you need actually to be at war. It's generally a bad idea to
declare war without a casus belli, but it is possible.

 > Okay, so, playing Poland and making use of the existing casus belli I attack
 > Hinterpommern from Wielkopolska. I get defeated, and surrender.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by surrender; I assume you mean that
you accepted peace on unfavourable terms.

 >Next, I move
 > another army up from Krakow and try to attack Hinterpommern again, but all I
 > get is a red 'X'. Does surrender constitute a treaty that does away with the
 > casus belli?

It constitutes a treaty which ends the war. To attack again you have to
declare war again. IIRC, Poland has a permanent casus belli against
Hinterpommern, so that's not a problem. However, every peace treaty
results in an automatic 5 year truce: if you declare war while the truce
is still in effect you will take a big diplomatic hit (even worse than
for not having a c.b. in the first place).

Best wishes,
Matthew Collett

--
Those who assert that the mathematical sciences have nothing to say
about the good or the beautiful are mistaken. -- Aristotle<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <0001HW.BB9CD8A6006F5019F0101600.DeleteThis@news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>,
Devi Jankowicz <animus.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote:
 >Ah, well, with a Polish background, I would find that difficult! It was those
 >Muscovite b*s who took the elad in partitioning Poland in the 1770s, and I
 >hope to play to prevent it.

I understand. I was fascinated by Polish history when I was younger,
so Poland was the first country I tried playing EU2 as, too.

EU2 doesn't really do a good job of modelling Poland. The political
structures of the time were just too unlike the rest of Europe. So
without a bunch of events that aren't in the game you won't get the
crazy instability bought on by the complete lack of central leadership
-- Sobieski was an exception to the usual.

 >I start, save, get on with real life, and then return to the game.
 >Go to the main scenario menu, choose the scenario in the top felt menu,
 >choose the Poland shield in the top right menu, then click on the 'Poland
 >1490' file in the bottom left hand corner. The startup screen starts,
 >initiates provinces, and then crashes while trying to laod the scenario.

You may want to update the OS. They're up to 10.2.8 (or is that
still on recall? I did the update and haven't had any problems),
and any one of those updates might make a difference.

Also, don't forget to grab the EU2 patch.

Matt

--
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in article bl6ja7$pt3$1@reader2.panix.com, Matt McLeod at matt.RemoveThis@tinho.net
wrote on 9/28/03 5:13 AM:

 > There are a few permanent CBs, but not so many. The main ones I
 > can recall are England/Scotland and Spain's Native American CBs.

I looked into this and in the GC and Age of Exploration scenarios nearly all
the major powers have at least one (Spain has a list that covers a page; I
didn't even try to count them), and many of the smaller ones do too.

BTW, the one between England and Scotland is temporary, but it lasts until
1821. Go figure. (I guess the designers wanted to insure that there would
always be bad blood between England and an *independent* Scotland,)

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <BB9DB5BB.189B6%emrys@olypen.com>,
Michael Emrys <emrys DeleteThis @olypen.com> wrote:
 >in article bl6ja7$pt3$1@reader2.panix.com, Matt McLeod at matt DeleteThis @tinho.net
 >wrote on 9/28/03 5:13 AM:
 >
  >> There are a few permanent CBs, but not so many. The main ones I
  >> can recall are England/Scotland and Spain's Native American CBs.
 >
 >I looked into this and in the GC and Age of Exploration scenarios nearly all
 >the major powers have at least one (Spain has a list that covers a page; I
 >didn't even try to count them), and many of the smaller ones do too.

Yes, but they're all of the "you've got my land" variety, and as soon
as you get your land (back) they go away. Go into the political view
(the second of the three little map-view buttons) and you'll see
"shields" on the map -- those are the provinces you have a claim over.

Spain has a blanket anti-Native American CB. Sunnis get one on Shiites.
For a while at the start of the GC Spain and Portugal get them on
North African states.

Matt

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