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House Power Failures and Mac

 
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Burt Johnson

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Since: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 180



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: House Power Failures and Mac [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>mac>apps (more info?)

I have had Macs since 1984. They have been through dozens of power
failures in those years. Never once had a problem afterwards.

At one time I had some big iron battery backups, so that I could keep
working during power outages of up to an hour long. That was during a
period when I was an independent contract programmer working out of the
house, so the backup paid for itself by letting me continue to work (and
bill).

These days I just light some candles and read a book instead. Happened
just a couple weeks ago again. When power came back, all 3 of my Macs
fired up and all were fine.

I should mention though, that we are not in an area with lightning. Our
power outages are usually wind related. If I were in a lightning area,
I would have the UPC simply as a buffer between the computer and the
wall outlet.

--
- Burt Johnson
MindStorm, Inc.
http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

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Richard Maine

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Since: Oct 11, 2005
Posts: 363



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 pm
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Burt Johnson <burt.DeleteThis@mindstorm-inc.com> wrote:

> I have had Macs since 1984. They have been through dozens of power
> failures in those years. Never once had a problem afterwards.
....
> I should mention though, that we are not in an area with lightning.

Yes, that does make a big difference. Simple power failure won't usually
damage hardware if it doesn't also involve surges. There are ways that
it can happen, but it probably isn't isn't a big risk. Probably not a
lot larger risk than from normal power-down/power-up (which is one of
the times when hardware failures do show up, just from the heat cycle if
nothing else). It can easily corrupt the data on a disk, but that is
fixable, usually by simple means and, as a last resort, by wiping and
reinstalling from backups.

Lightning, though.... well, the issues with that should be obvious.

And depending on various wiring details, you can get damaging surges
(though at far less than lightning levels) from other kinds of power
failures. That's probably the biggest non-lightnng risk. It will vary
from place to place whether the power outages tend to be "clean" or
accompanied by surges.

--
Richard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement.
domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain

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Jolly Roger

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Since: Sep 09, 2006
Posts: 2861



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 pm
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In article <1ic3fi0.18est761dftw9qN%burt@mindstorm-inc.com>,
burt.RemoveThis@mindstorm-inc.com (Burt Johnson) wrote:

> I have had Macs since 1984. They have been through dozens of power
> failures in those years. Never once had a problem afterwards.

While I don't doubt you've had components fried, I do think you've
probably had file system corruption due to power failures, because it's
inevitable. You may not have noticed, or you may have attributed
problems with your file system to other causes, but I have little doubt
you've experienced it.

--
Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you
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JR
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Dudley Henriques

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Since: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 176



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:56 pm
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Dudley Henriques wrote:

I just want to thank everyone who answered in this thread. I read all of
it and appreciate your time. I learned a lot from your input.
Thank you


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Dudley Henriques
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Mike Rosenberg

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Since: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 2545



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:16 pm
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Jolly Roger <jollyroger DeleteThis @pobox.com> wrote:

> > I've lost count of how many friend Ethernet ports I've seen down there.
>
> *fried* ; )

Yeah, but how many friends' ethernet ports have been fried?

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Jolly Roger

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Since: Sep 09, 2006
Posts: 2861



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:16 pm
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In article <1ic3unb.yl6dcv1mupzaqN%mikePOST@TOGROUPmacconsult.com>,
mikePOST.DeleteThis@TOGROUPmacconsult.com (Mike Rosenberg) wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > > I've lost count of how many friend Ethernet ports I've seen down there.
> >
> > *fried* ; )
>
> Yeah, but how many friends' ethernet ports have been fried?

I've lost count of those as well. : )

--
Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you
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Lewis

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Since: Jan 19, 2008
Posts: 637



(Msg. 22) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:29 pm
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w_tom

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Since: Feb 10, 2008
Posts: 24



(Msg. 23) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:03 pm
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On Feb 10, 4:56 pm, Dudley Henriques <dhenriq....RemoveThis@rcn.com> wrote:
> I just want to thank everyone who answered in this thread. I read all of
> it and appreciate your time. I learned a lot from your input.

How many responders learned by designing stuff and fixing things by
literally replacing semiconductors? Posted along side some good ideas
are numerous popular myths.

First, low voltage does not harm properly designed electronics.
Just another normal electrical problem made completely irrelevant by
functions inside the power supply. Low voltage may cause data loss. A
UPS provides data protection (as others have noted); not hardware
protection.

Read numeric specs for a UPS. Where are numeric claims for hardware
protection? It does not. Why does the manufacturer not even claim
what others have posted here? Worse, some of the 'dirtiest'
electricity seen by a computer will come from a 'computer grade' UPS
when in battery backup mode. For example this 120 volts UPS outputs
two 200 volts square waves (not sine waves) with a 270 volts spike
between those square waves. A computer grade UPS outputs electricity
so 'dirty' as to even harm some small electric motors. Computer grade
because the same electricity is not harmful to computers. Since
computer power supplies are so robust, then that 'dirty' UPS power is
'computer grade' power. How many others learned this stuff by even
confirming those numbers with an oscilloscope? How many posters read
those manufacturer specs?

Second, why would a UPS protect Ethernet ports? Did you know
ethernet ports must withstand thousands of volts without damage?
Again, read those specs. Where did a destructive thousands of volts
come from? At least one recommended a protector located on circuit
breaker panels. But a protector is not protection. A protector is
only a connecting device to protection. When the protectors makes
that 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground, then that
thousands of volts need not enter the building to find earth ground,
destructively, via those ethernet ports. Earth ground is why the
electic panel protector does something useful.

What provides electrical and electronic protection? Even your
dishwasher requires such protection. Protection is provided by earth
ground. Thousands of volts that sees earth ground where those volts
enters the building need not find earth ground, destructively, via
appliances.

Power supplies are so robust; contain functions that make electrical
anomalies irrelevant. Both numbers from Intel specifications and from
from more responsible power supply vendors put those numbers at
thousands of volts for a 120 volt power supply. Where does a multi-
thousand volt spike come from to overwhelm protection inside
appliances, a computer, and those ethernet ports? If this voltage
spike connects to earth ground where each wire enters a building, then
protection inside appliances (including dish washer) will not be
overwhelmed.

Third - citations from professionals. Electrical Engineering Times
defines electrical appliance protection in two front page articles on
1 Oct and 8 Oct 2007 entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from
Lightning Transients" at:
http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201807127
http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201807830

Where do those articles discuss a UPS? The article is not discussing
myths. It discusses protection as has been well understood even 100
years ago. Protection is defined by earth ground. A protector with
that short (less than 10 foot) connection to earth has THE only
required component in every protection solution: earth ground.

Many forget to see protection as a 'system'. A 'magic box' (ie
UPS), instead, will provide a solution? Hardly. How did thousands of
volts enter a building to damage so many ethernet ports? Did anyone
ask that question, or just speculate? Somehow that silly little one
inch part will stop what three miles of sky could not? That is the
myth.

Reality: your telco's $multi-million computer, connected to overhead
wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges during every thunderstorm.
And no damage. Why? Telcos do what is posted here to not have
damage. A superior solution that also costs tens or maybe a hundred
times less money. Every incoming wire must connect, short, to the same
earthing electrode. Both front page EE Times articles make that
point. A direct wire connection or that 'less than 10 foot'
connection is via a protector. The protector is not protection. The
effective protector is simply a connecting device so that thousand of
volts will not enter the building to damage, for example, ethernet
ports.

Finally, some power supplies sold to clone computer assemblers are
missing essential functions. That computer power supply must
withstand a thousand volts without damage. Does that one supply
contain those internal functions? How does a power supply sell for
$25 and $40 retail? Forget some essential functions when selling to
people who assemble computers and do not even know how electricity
works. So we fix a $25 missing function with a $100+ UPS? A UPS that
does not even claim to solve the problem? A UPS that has no 'less
than 10 foot' connection to earth ground?

Every wire entering the building must connect to single point earth
ground as demonstrated by this application note from an industry
professional:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Every wire in every cable (including underground cables - see that
figure) makes a short connection to single point earth ground where
the cable enters a building. A 'whole house' protector in a breaker
box can do just that. Telco already installs an effective protector
for free (did others know that telco installed protector exists?). TV
(coax) cable drops down to make an earthing connection before entering
the building. Even grounded to a water faucet is not sufficient..
Where does that UPS provide hardware protection claims? Where are the
numbers? A UPS to protect ethernet ports is not found in engineering
facts; only found in popular myths.

How does your telco, commercial broadcasting stations, airports, 911
emergency response centers, etc all suffer direct lightning strikes
and no damage? This post even includes professional citations
including two front page articles from EE Times. This post from one
who learned why failures occur by tracing source of the damage AND by
literally replacing semiconductors. Posted here is contrary to a
majority of other posts. But how many others asked damning questions
such as why? How many even cited a single manufacturer specification?
How many explained how protection works? A UPS does not even claim to
protect hardware. Low voltage does not harm electronics despite
popular myth. How many know a UPS in battery backup mode outputs
electricity so dirty as to even damage some small electric motors?
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dorayme

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Since: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1306



(Msg. 24) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:04 pm
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In article
<jollyroger-DC8641.12350710022008.DeleteThis@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.ne
t>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:

> In article <2008021007531216807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>,
> C J Campbell <christophercampbell.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You probably do not need battery backup. In theory, if your computer
> > was writing to the hard drive at the exact moment that the power went
> > out, you could corrupt that sector. If not that, you will certainly
> > lose whatever it was that was being saved.
>
> Keep in mind, too, that data can and does stay in memory sometimes for
> prolonged periods before the operating system actually flushes that data
> to disk. If the system loses power during that time, that data is lost.
> Directory and file corruption can occur this way. I consider this a need
> for power backup - if for no other reason than to give the system a
> chance to flush the disk buffers and shut down gracefully.

So with this set-up can it then know to shut down?

--
dorayme
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Jolly Roger

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Since: Sep 09, 2006
Posts: 2861



(Msg. 25) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:04 pm
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In article
<doraymeRidThis-042D7E.08510211022008.DeleteThis@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis.DeleteThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> In article
> <jollyroger-DC8641.12350710022008.DeleteThis@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.ne
> t>,
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <2008021007531216807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>,
> > C J Campbell <christophercampbell.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > You probably do not need battery backup. In theory, if your computer
> > > was writing to the hard drive at the exact moment that the power went
> > > out, you could corrupt that sector. If not that, you will certainly
> > > lose whatever it was that was being saved.
> >
> > Keep in mind, too, that data can and does stay in memory sometimes for
> > prolonged periods before the operating system actually flushes that data
> > to disk. If the system loses power during that time, that data is lost.
> > Directory and file corruption can occur this way. I consider this a need
> > for power backup - if for no other reason than to give the system a
> > chance to flush the disk buffers and shut down gracefully.
>
> So with this set-up can it then know to shut down?

Yes. Apple provides built-in support in Mac OS X for more popular brands
of UPS systems (APC is one) that automatically populates the Energy
Saver system preference panel with options that let you tell the system
to shut down before the battery is depleted. Also, most UPS systems come
with software that lets the computer to which the UPS is connected (with
a supplied USB data cable) shut down before the battery is depleted.

--
Note: Please send all responses to the relevant news group. If you
must contact me through e-mail, let me know when you send email to
this address so that your email doesn't get eaten by my SPAM filter.

JR
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dorayme

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Since: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1306



(Msg. 26) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:04 pm
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In article
<jollyroger-9B8150.15583110022008.TakeThisOut@70-3-168-216.area5.spcsdns.net>
,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote:

> In article
> <doraymeRidThis-042D7E.08510211022008.TakeThisOut@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
> dorayme <doraymeRidThis.TakeThisOut@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <jollyroger-DC8641.12350710022008.TakeThisOut@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.ne
> > t>,
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger.TakeThisOut@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I consider this a need
> > > for power backup - if for no other reason than to give the system a
> > > chance to flush the disk buffers and shut down gracefully.
> >
> > So with this set-up can it then know to shut down?
>
> Yes. Apple provides built-in support in Mac OS X for more popular brands
> of UPS systems (APC is one) that automatically populates the Energy
> Saver system preference panel with options that let you tell the system
> to shut down before the battery is depleted. Also, most UPS systems come
> with software that lets the computer to which the UPS is connected (with
> a supplied USB data cable) shut down before the battery is depleted.

Excellent. That is the last bit of info I need before moving
house. I am getting a bit fed up of living in an area with such
stable electricity and so few big storms. I view with jealousy
some of you lot in those exciting areas of the USA that one sees
on the TV... I am also thinking it would be nice to have a
Dorothy experience, you know, The Wizard of Oz.

--
dorayme
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Jeffrey Goldberg

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Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 840



(Msg. 27) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:47 pm
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In <1ic3fi0.18est761dftw9qN%burt@mindstorm-inc.com>, Burt Johnson wrote:

> I should mention though, that we are not in an area with lightning. Our
> power outages are usually wind related.

That makes all of the difference. I do have a couple of system that I
want to keep running in event of a power failure. Those are on the
(relatively) "big" UPSes. Everything else is on small ones, primarily for
lightning protection. I live in north Texas.

Now if only I could find something that will protect my dog from terror
during thunder storms. (Actually human members of the family do
reasonably well, but I worry about her when we are away during a storm.)

-j


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Jeffrey Goldberg

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Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 840



(Msg. 28) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:51 pm
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In <rowbotth-808C2A.12581910022008.RemoveThis@news.newsgroupdirect.com>, Rowbotth wrote:

> And another benefit to the APC UPS that I have is that they plug into
> the Mac with a USB Cable, and it goes right into the Energy Saver under
> System Preferences, and it sees the UPS I have.

Wow. I've been using apcupsd on a couple of systems for no good reason if
this is built into System Preferences.

-j

PS:

Answer: No
Question: Is top-posting a good way to carry on a conversation?


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Jeffrey Goldberg

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(Msg. 29) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:54 pm
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In <jollyroger-B0BE67.16003010022008.DeleteThis@70-3-168-216.area5.spcsdns.net>, Jolly...:

> Yep. I would use the built-in support, only it doesn't allow you to
> shut down *multiple* computers that are connected to the UPS. apcupsd
> lets you do that, and is more configurable as well.

At the moment, only one Mac shares a UPS with another machine. So I will
keep apcupsd for that. But this will make things simpler for the other
Macs.

-j

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Jeffrey Goldberg

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Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 840



(Msg. 30) Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:59 pm
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In <doraymeRidThis-2ECB73.09163111022008.TakeThisOut@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>, dorayme...:

> Excellent. That is the last bit of info I need before moving
> house. I am getting a bit fed up of living in an area with such
> stable electricity and so few big storms. I view with jealousy
> some of you lot in those exciting areas of the USA that one sees
> on the TV...

Don't worry. We are working hard to export interesting weather to the
rest of the world.

-j

--
Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/
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