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Since: Jun 01, 2004 Posts: 820
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:19 pm
Post subject: Master of Orion II and VMWare Archived from groups: comp>sys>mac>games>strategic (more info?)
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Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
I already have VMWare and use it for a couple of applications which just
don't have substitutes on the Mac. I've tried to use it with a couple of
games, as it has some degree of DirectX support, but had no luck. I get
the impression that the DX support is targeted toward certain games only,
and other games are very hit-or-miss, with mine clearly being miss.
But then I had a bit of inspiration: you don't need DX support for really
old games. And what better really old game to try than MoOII.
It works beautifully. The mouse control isn't quite as smooth as I would
like, but I think that's just inherent to the game itself. Everything else
performs entirely well, with full sound support. Performance for internal
operations *should* be good, because VMWare is a virtualizer, not an
emulator, and so applications running inside it run directly on the native
CPU. And of course this game ran acceptably on a 33MHz system, so a
2.66GHz system should be no sweat. Graphics performance was my big concern
because the emulators I had tried before had real problems here, but
apparently VMWare has this together.
I was able to play through two quick games and experienced no problems. I
tried medium-sized galaxies with average difficulty; I haven't played for
years and wanted to make things reasonably easy. I played Klackons the
first game and went for a colonize-everything-in-sight strategy which got
me into one short war (I wish the AI would look at your production
capabilities and not just your fleet size when deciding how weak you are!)
and then I suddenly won the game when I won the election for galactic
leader.
The second game was more interesting. This time I took the Psilons and
went for the strategy of colonizing one other good system, then building
up both systems as much as possible and aiming to get a massive research
lead. This worked well once I remembered to keep my fleet at a reasonable
size. I forgot at the beginning and faced a short war, but built up fast
enough that I quickly emerged victorious. (It sure is good those Psilon
scientists can instantly retrain to become shipyard workers!) Orion ended
up being right next to my homeworld and I was zipping through the tech
tree trying to get to a point where I could take out the Guardian without
too much fuss when I was blindsided by an election which the Sakkra won!
Ooooops. I of course refused to acknowledge the result and resigned myself
to a fight to the death. But then I discovered that my plan to out-tech
everyone had *worked*; by this time I had enough production technology
that my five or so good planets were able to outproduce all of my
now-united enemies, and enough weapons technology that the ships which I
produced were vastly superior. After a couple of false starts trying to
take down heavy planetary defenses with inadequate fleets, I started
romping around the galaxy mowing down Sakkra colonies. The main limitation
at this point was ship range, and tech advances and one outpost ship
solved that, giving me a win by extermination.
I'm very glad to have this game back! But I'm also worried about how much
time it can kill....
I'm running this on a ridiculously powerful system, a quad-core Mac Pro
with 7GB of RAM. This system is probably one hundred to one thousand times
more powerful than the MoOII minimum requirements. However, I would expect
any Mac capable of running VMWare to run it well, since they *all* vastly
outperform this minimum spec. Of course VMWare only works on Intel Macs. I
didn't do anything special, just installed it in my existing Windows XP
image.
I've read that MoOII also works well in DOSBox, an emulator for a combined
x86/DOS environment. I haven't tried it myself. This would be slower, but
it would also work on PowerPC Macs, and with the vast excess of computing
power available would still probably run very well. It would also avoid
the cost of purchasing VMWare if you don't already have it.
When it comes to accessing older games, emulation (or virtualization) is
the way to go, and I think it's important to realize that OS X is
basically unrelated to all the older OSes. If you've been wanting to run
that old Mac game you just loved, consider finding and running the PC
version instead, assuming there is one. PC emulators and virtualizers are,
in my experience, much easier to set up and a lot more work is done on
them. There's no real advantage to emulating the old Mac OS in OS X as
opposed to emulating some other OS, except perhaps for familiarity. And
once you're in the game that all goes out the window anyway!
Now if only I could think of any other old games with PC versions that I
actually want to play....
--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jul 25, 2006 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1198718368.451559 RemoveThis @nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
Michael Ash <mike RemoveThis @mikeash.com> wrote:
> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
Very promising. Now I'd just need to get a copy of MOO2 for Windows. Any
ideas on places that still might have it for sale?
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jun 23, 2006 Posts: 17
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:57 am
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michael Ash <mike RemoveThis @mikeash.com> writes:
>Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
>running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
>then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
>Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
[ ... ]
>But then I had a bit of inspiration: you don't need DX support for really
>old games. And what better really old game to try than MoOII.
Oh, this is splendid news, thank you. It's certainly something
to try and I'm looking forward to -- if I ever have free time again,
which would probably require something insane like running out of things
to try in 'Victoria Revolutions' -- seeing if Imperialism III can make
do under a similar treatment.
>The second game was more interesting. This time I took the Psilons and
>went for the strategy of colonizing one other good system, then building
>up both systems as much as possible and aiming to get a massive research
>lead. This worked well once I remembered to keep my fleet at a reasonable
>size. I forgot at the beginning and faced a short war, but built up fast
>enough that I quickly emerged victorious. (It sure is good those Psilon
>scientists can instantly retrain to become shipyard workers!) Orion ended
>up being right next to my homeworld and I was zipping through the tech
>tree trying to get to a point where I could take out the Guardian without
>too much fuss when I was blindsided by an election which the Sakkra won!
>Ooooops.
Those elections are the ones that always aggravate me the most,
particularly since very often my winning strategy is through the election.
I'm very much the economic-and-political sort of player and don't go
around starting wars, which usually leaves me a relatively popular guy
whatever the game is.
> I of course refused to acknowledge the result and resigned myself
>to a fight to the death. But then I discovered that my plan to out-tech
>everyone had *worked*; by this time I had enough production technology
>that my five or so good planets were able to outproduce all of my
>now-united enemies, and enough weapons technology that the ships which I
>produced were vastly superior. After a couple of false starts trying to
>take down heavy planetary defenses with inadequate fleets, I started
>romping around the galaxy mowing down Sakkra colonies. The main limitation
>at this point was ship range, and tech advances and one outpost ship
>solved that, giving me a win by extermination.
... *wow*. That is astounding. Well done!
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jun 01, 2004 Posts: 820
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:31 am
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Greg Buchner <null DeleteThis @none.invalid> wrote:
> In article <1198718368.451559 DeleteThis @nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
> Michael Ash <mike DeleteThis @mikeash.com> wrote:
>
>> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
>> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
>> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
>> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
>
> Very promising. Now I'd just need to get a copy of MOO2 for Windows. Any
> ideas on places that still might have it for sale?
There are tons of cheap copies on eBay, and if you don't feel like dealing
with those, Atari is selling it as a digital download for all your instant
graification needs:
http://www.atari.com/us/games/moo2_battle_anta/pc
I didn't actually try the download, but I assume that it gives you
identical files to the CD, and even if not, it should still work.
--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jul 25, 2006 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1199118671.583416.TakeThisOut@nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
Michael Ash <mike.TakeThisOut@mikeash.com> wrote:
> Greg Buchner <null.TakeThisOut@none.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <1198718368.451559.TakeThisOut@nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
> > Michael Ash <mike.TakeThisOut@mikeash.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
> >> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
> >> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
> >> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
> >
> > Very promising. Now I'd just need to get a copy of MOO2 for Windows. Any
> > ideas on places that still might have it for sale?
>
> There are tons of cheap copies on eBay, and if you don't feel like dealing
> with those, Atari is selling it as a digital download for all your instant
> graification needs:
>
> http://www.atari.com/us/games/moo2_battle_anta/pc
>
> I didn't actually try the download, but I assume that it gives you
> identical files to the CD, and even if not, it should still work.
Thanks. I guess I should have thought of ebay, but it was old enough
software that I just figured it wouldn't be readily available. But
nothing's old enough or outdated enough for ebay I guess.
But the Atari download seems like the best deal. I'll probably go that
route being that I have the manual from the Mac version...not that I
really need it anymore...unless a friend can find the second copy he
bought at one time to send to me.
After that I'll just have to track down the various Civ II components
and Heroes of Might and Magic III... I would hope both of those would
work quite well under Fusion.
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jun 01, 2004 Posts: 820
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Greg Buchner <null DeleteThis @none.invalid> wrote:
> Thanks. I guess I should have thought of ebay, but it was old enough
> software that I just figured it wouldn't be readily available. But
> nothing's old enough or outdated enough for ebay I guess.
Indeed, I was surprised as well.
> But the Atari download seems like the best deal. I'll probably go that
> route being that I have the manual from the Mac version...not that I
> really need it anymore...unless a friend can find the second copy he
> bought at one time to send to me.
>
> After that I'll just have to track down the various Civ II components
> and Heroes of Might and Magic III... I would hope both of those would
> work quite well under Fusion.
I imagine that any game which doesn't do hardware-accelerated 3D graphics
should run very nicely.
--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jul 25, 2006 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1199147963.605838 RemoveThis @nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
Michael Ash <mike RemoveThis @mikeash.com> wrote:
> > After that I'll just have to track down the various Civ II components
> > and Heroes of Might and Magic III... I would hope both of those would
> > work quite well under Fusion.
>
> I imagine that any game which doesn't do hardware-accelerated 3D graphics
> should run very nicely.
And I imagine it should work better than SheepShaver. Heroes III and Civ
2 Gold both crash when I run them and MOO2 has some mouse pointer issues
that make the game annoying to me.
Now I just need a dose of patience to wait for these games under
Windows, although I can run them on a G4 yet. It's just that my MacBook
Pro is much more convenient.
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jul 25, 2006 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:16 am
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1198718368.451559 DeleteThis @nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
Michael Ash <mike DeleteThis @mikeash.com> wrote:
> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
Now I would like a little more information on how you have things set up.
I had to set a compatibility mode for the game (I think I'm at
Win95/640x480) to get it to run without an error. (In Fusion of course.)
But the game runs with no graphics showing. I can hear the game start up
and get to the main menu, but that it. I don't see anything. The game
does work fine if I boot directly into Windows (XP Pro SP2) via Boot
Camp.
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jun 01, 2004 Posts: 820
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Greg Buchner <null.DeleteThis@none.invalid> wrote:
> In article <1198718368.451559.DeleteThis@nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
> Michael Ash <mike.DeleteThis@mikeash.com> wrote:
>
>> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
>> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
>> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
>> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
>
> Now I would like a little more information on how you have things set up.
>
> I had to set a compatibility mode for the game (I think I'm at
> Win95/640x480) to get it to run without an error. (In Fusion of course.)
> But the game runs with no graphics showing. I can hear the game start up
> and get to the main menu, but that it. I don't see anything. The game
> does work fine if I boot directly into Windows (XP Pro SP2) via Boot
> Camp.
I'm afraid I won't be able to help much here. I just ran the installer and
it worked. I have no compatibility modes set or anything of that sort. I'm
running XP Pro SP2 as well. I can just double-click Orion95.exe and off I
go.
--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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Since: Jul 25, 2006 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Master of Orion II and VMWare [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1201127241.300848.RemoveThis@nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
Michael Ash <mike.RemoveThis@mikeash.com> wrote:
> Greg Buchner <null.RemoveThis@none.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <1198718368.451559.RemoveThis@nfs-db1.segnet.com>,
> > Michael Ash <mike.RemoveThis@mikeash.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Some of you may recall my previous efforts to get Master of Orion II
> >> running on modern Macs, first with Classic (which was unusably buggy) and
> >> then in emulators (which was unusably slow and didn't work with sound).
> >> Well, I finally hit paydirt with VMWare.
> >
> > Now I would like a little more information on how you have things set up.
> >
> > I had to set a compatibility mode for the game (I think I'm at
> > Win95/640x480) to get it to run without an error. (In Fusion of course.)
> > But the game runs with no graphics showing. I can hear the game start up
> > and get to the main menu, but that it. I don't see anything. The game
> > does work fine if I boot directly into Windows (XP Pro SP2) via Boot
> > Camp.
>
> I'm afraid I won't be able to help much here. I just ran the installer and
> it worked. I have no compatibility modes set or anything of that sort. I'm
> running XP Pro SP2 as well. I can just double-click Orion95.exe and off I
> go.
Funny, now it works. Maybe it's because I ran it successfully in Boot
Camp...
Ah, the wonderful strangeness of a Windows install.
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gregbuchner and I'm located at gmail.com >> Stay informed about: Master of Orion II and VMWare |
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