Portals

taryncl DeleteThis @attbi.com (Taryn) wrote in message news:<900f09e.0310231927.17839dd DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
 > I guess I'm also part of an even smaller minority that still hopes,
 > for now, the social problem is solvable. Just reminding the gods
 > there's at least one.

The portals provide an inexpensive trip from A to B, particularly if
both locations are "safe". And the cost is the same for any such A
and B. As such, they can dramatically change the difficulty of many
existing physical challenges. That which lies beyond those challenges
becomes accessible at a much lower price. That far I agree with Slyph
and Klur and others.

Whether it is good or bad is another issue. I find some merit in
arguments for both.

However, I happen to be one of those "challenge relativists". I
believe that those who want challenge will find it. If the world
changes, that merely means instead of challenges being over here,
challenges are over there. The greatest reward for me in conquering a
challenge is the victory itself. Taking a mob of newbies through
Queen's Chamber might be more challenging than helping a well-led mob
with a Foothills trip.

I don't see myself as running out of challenges. Furthermore, besides
the physical challenges, I see our world as containing many *social*
challenges in the game. Ironically, if anything, the presence of the
portals may make some of those *social* challenges MORE difficult.

From the very beginning, we are faced with social challenges. There's
the first interaction (I was so confused and disoriented exiting the
temple I didn't acknowledge a hello, and got three bad karma right
away, for example).

Then there's making friends. Finding people you like, and having
people like you in return. Learning to do things together.

There's finding a clan you want to belong to. And making yourself
attractive to them.

There's establishing a reputation in the community. Gaining their
respect.

There's developing leadership skills. Which, to paraphrase well-known
leader, requires proving you know what you are doing, knowing how to
use others, and most importantly getting others to follow.

There's giving back to the community what it gave to you. Teaching
others. Helping others reach their goals. Or making their experience
more fun.

Today we are faced with a social challenge we've faced and failed
before: community agreement. The orga stones were traded to the
Brions by a group of people who felt they had "enough" community
support, despite loud dissent. But there was no community agreement.
I asked for such, but I was a nobody then; I was heard, but not much
paid attention to.

Once again I'd like to see community agreement. I see that as a great
social challenge, bringing together factions who've been hostile for
ages, having them agree when they have vastly different viewpoints,
ending a cold and not-so-cold war. And I have to wonder at those
people who so ardently defend difficult challenges, and yet who are
avoiding this one.

If we get community agreement on the portals, their "design flaws" go
away. We will have decided how to appropriately use them. We will
have chosen how they affect the difficulty of various challenges. We
will have agreed that in these ways, the "good" outweighs the "bad".

I'm less of a nobody today. I have a reputation; I have the respect
of many (I think). But I don't have the stature and respect of
leaders like Kiriel d'Sol, Klur, Michael, or Yor. Or that of
community icons like Connie Crete or Lorikeet. And yet it seems I'm
alone in this struggle. The one other person I knew who was working
on peace threw up his hands with the latest conflagration, and gave
up.

I can't do it alone. Cowboy diplomacy won't work. In the world of
Puddleby, the greater difficult physical challenges were designed to
be overcome by greater cooperative effort. So also with this great
social challenge. We need to work together. I need you.

So, if you want peace and are willing to work on it -- join me. Or
even if you're bored, because there's nothing else challenging for you
-- join me.

Or my hope for peace will extinguish like the last candle flame in a
sea of darkness.

Taryn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Portals 

In article <900f09e.0310242045.47056054 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>,
taryncl RemoveThis @attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:

 > Or my hope for peace will extinguish like the last candle flame in a
 > sea of darkness.

Hmm... that sounds like fun. I'll consider that a new challenge!

<G>

--
HWC for Hidden <hidden RemoveThis @noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Carpe diem via scrotum."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <900f09e.0310242045.47056054 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>,
taryncl DeleteThis @attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:
 > Once again I'd like to see community agreement. I see that as a great
 > social challenge, bringing together factions who've been hostile for
 > ages, having them agree when they have vastly different viewpoints,
 > ending a cold and not-so-cold war. And I have to wonder at those
 > people who so ardently defend difficult challenges, and yet who are
 > avoiding this one.

Quite frankly, the real problem with this disagreement is that one side
does not consider themselves part of the community. Klur and his
supporters prefer to separate themselves in most ways from the
community, yet they still feel the need to decide for the community what
is best. This is, at the core, what drives home the futility of trying
to come to any sort of agreement regarding the portals. Most of the
community I think would like to work together to come to a solution that
works for the most people. Klur doesn't care about whether the community
is happy with what he does with the portals. As far as he's concerned he
can do whatever he wants and if the community doesn't like it, too bad,
he knows what's best.

I'm amazed so many people are still willing to rehash this over and over
again, and try to reason with him, because it's so clear it will never
work. To have agreement, the parties involved have to be willing to
respect each other's positions and I don't believe that Klur can do that
because he feels that he is above the rest of us.

I do hope that you can achieve some measure of peace here Taryn, but I
personally think that the only way this will be solved is if the GMs
take steps to limit use of the portal in ways they consider
inappropriate, and then indicate to the community they've done so, so
that these people who are playing GM and telling the rest of us what is
acceptable use of an in-game technology can get a life.

-SWC Kiriel D'Sol

-- Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for
something, sometime in thy life.... -Elminster of Shadowdale<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Portals 

In article <kirielspam-A00D06.22412324102003@localhost>,
Kiriel D'Sol <kirielspam.TakeThisOut@windsofdawn.org> wrote:

 > In article <900f09e.0310242045.47056054.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>,
 > taryncl.TakeThisOut@attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:
  > > Once again I'd like to see community agreement. I see that as a great
  > > social challenge, bringing together factions who've been hostile for
  > > ages, having them agree when they have vastly different viewpoints,
  > > ending a cold and not-so-cold war. And I have to wonder at those
  > > people who so ardently defend difficult challenges, and yet who are
  > > avoiding this one.
 >
 > Quite frankly, the real problem with this disagreement is that one side
 > does not consider themselves part of the community. Klur and his
 > supporters prefer to separate themselves in most ways from the
 > community, yet they still feel the need to decide for the community what
 > is best. This is, at the core, what drives home the futility of trying
 > to come to any sort of agreement regarding the portals. Most of the
 > community I think would like to work together to come to a solution that
 > works for the most people. Klur doesn't care about whether the community
 > is happy with what he does with the portals. As far as he's concerned he
 > can do whatever he wants and if the community doesn't like it, too bad,
 > he knows what's best.
 >
 > I'm amazed so many people are still willing to rehash this over and over
 > again, and try to reason with him, because it's so clear it will never
 > work. To have agreement, the parties involved have to be willing to
 > respect each other's positions and I don't believe that Klur can do that
 > because he feels that he is above the rest of us.
 >
 > I do hope that you can achieve some measure of peace here Taryn, but I
 > personally think that the only way this will be solved is if the GMs
 > take steps to limit use of the portal in ways they consider
 > inappropriate, and then indicate to the community they've done so, so
 > that these people who are playing GM and telling the rest of us what is
 > acceptable use of an in-game technology can get a life.
 >
 > -SWC Kiriel D'Sol
 >
 > -- Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for
 > something, sometime in thy life.... -Elminster of Shadowdale

amen sister<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Portals 

In article <900f09e.0310242045.47056054.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
taryncl.RemoveThis@attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:

 > The portals provide an inexpensive trip from A to B, particularly if
 > both locations are "safe". And the cost is the same for any such A
 > and B. As such, they can dramatically change the difficulty of many
 > existing physical challenges. That which lies beyond those challenges
 > becomes accessible at a much lower price. That far I agree with Slyph
 > and Klur and others.
 >
 > Whether it is good or bad is another issue. I find some merit in
 > arguments for both.
 >
 > However, I happen to be one of those "challenge relativists". I
 > believe that those who want challenge will find it. If the world
 > changes, that merely means instead of challenges being over here,
 > challenges are over there. The greatest reward for me in conquering a
 > challenge is the victory itself. Taking a mob of newbies through
 > Queen's Chamber might be more challenging than helping a well-led mob
 > with a Foothills trip.

Somewhere you folks are losing sight of the state of the game.
The vast majority of folks currently playing are veterans who have
already been to most places. Many folks leave the game because they
don't have a chance to see places like the FHs. It isn't because they
are "newbies"...it is because of time constraints.

True newbies still have wanderlust in their eyes when they end up in
places like trooltown and OC...IMHO, a true newbie wouldn't have fun in
a place like the pitch cave. Being insta-PND isn't fun. As for them
seeing new places, to a newbie MOST places are new.

The folks who truely desire the "shortcut" that the portals offer are
those of us who are sick and tired of needing 4 hour stints to get to
new places...places that will make us care about logging on in the first
place.

The "grandparent: we didnt have shoes when we were newbies" arguement is
weak. The game isn't going to be ruined because the 1 or 2 TRUELY new
folks that subscribe every 6 months or so got to see a place where they
would be insta-PND, it's because morons choose to take away the one
thing that many folks are sticking around for...to see new and far away
places.

IMHO, DT doen't give 2 shits (indeed, have put very little effort into)
about promoting for new folks to subscribe. With something as
glaringly ass as the demo area existing, the effort to preserve the game
by fucking with the portals is assinine.

Please, drop the "we feel bad for n00bs" arguement.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Portals 

Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

 > In article <3OFlb.107414$gv5.35516@fed1read05>, Para <Para DeleteThis @nospam.net>
 > wrote:
 >
  > > I urge the GMs not to let themselves be bullied by players who insist
  > > that they know Clan Lord best. And I trust the GMs more than I trust
  > > [a group of players] to chart the future of Clan Lord, frankly.
 >
 > <G> Can I quote you on that?
 >
 > Helpful "oh wait, I just did" GM :D
 >
 > (I'm just kidding around. Your statement is funny, when presented in a
 > forum that's rife with "you don't know what you're talking about" and
 > "if you'd ever play the game, you'd know that...", etc :)

You like to laugh off the GM involvment with PM, but thats not so easy.
How many members of PMF are clicked by GMs?

I dont know, but I would bet all my coins that there is at least one.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Portals 

I want to reiterate that when I designed this thing, some conflict was
expected -- the portals ARE powerful.

I believe that some level of conflict is appropriate, exciting and
fun. I certianly didn't anticiplate that the primary conflict would
be between the "we're keeping the special places special" party and
the "time is precious; the portals are here for our enjoyment" crew.
Players continue to suprise me...

I don't see either camp as clearly "right". Personally, I'd like to
resolve the whole thing without making drastic interventions. That
said...

Options vary.
Discussion continues.
Drastic action has not been ruled out.

My current plan of action is to reduce the worst of the abuses that
occur on both sides of this admittedly heated debate. What follows
are ideas; not promises:

1) The biggest adjustment I have in mind to reduce the power of the
portals by making it so that they periodically reset back up to their
initial cloud position. Note that if a portal is "parked" in a safe
spot it might reset back to the cloud alarmingly quickly.

2) There are some other fairly straightforward fixes to the problem of
stolen or wedged portals. I'll have to fix a bug or two, and will
probably replace the high-level mystics ability to move the portal
very quickly with a different portal-related power.

I am not going to be able to address the "not enough normal places to
hunt" problem directly. By and large, I don't do hunting areas.
Sure, I have ideas, but my specialty is more "tool" related.

WatsonGM
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watsongm DeleteThis @moopenguin.org (Watson GM) wrote in message news:<ab72f927.0310271624.f21fb67 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
 > I want to reiterate that when I designed this thing, some conflict was
 > expected -- the portals ARE powerful.
 >
 > I believe that some level of conflict is appropriate, exciting and
 > fun. I certianly didn't anticiplate that the primary conflict would
 > be between the "we're keeping the special places special" party and
 > the "time is precious; the portals are here for our enjoyment" crew.
 > Players continue to suprise me...
 >
 > I don't see either camp as clearly "right". Personally, I'd like to
 > resolve the whole thing without making drastic interventions. That
 > said...
 >
 > Options vary.
 > Discussion continues.
 > Drastic action has not been ruled out.
 >
 > My current plan of action is to reduce the worst of the abuses that
 > occur on both sides of this admittedly heated debate. What follows
 > are ideas; not promises:
 >
 > 1) The biggest adjustment I have in mind to reduce the power of the
 > portals by making it so that they periodically reset back up to their
 > initial cloud position. Note that if a portal is "parked" in a safe
 > spot it might reset back to the cloud alarmingly quickly.
 >
 > 2) There are some other fairly straightforward fixes to the problem of
 > stolen or wedged portals. I'll have to fix a bug or two, and will
 > probably replace the high-level mystics ability to move the portal
 > very quickly with a different portal-related power.
 >
 > I am not going to be able to address the "not enough normal places to
 > hunt" problem directly. By and large, I don't do hunting areas.
 > Sure, I have ideas, but my specialty is more "tool" related.
 >
 > WatsonGM

Call me biased. I think teleporting should have remained a mystic
ability. It seems that would have removed PMF's concerns. The other
camp might feel that they did not have adequate access to the
capability but that could easily change.
Maybe it is not possible, depending on the significance of the mirror,
cloud, portal connection(assuming there is any significance).
If I had implemented this ability for mystics it would have 'sucked'
sufficiently to fit right in with the class.

And why does the dark cloud never move out of the savanna area?!

Hepta<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Watson GM <watsongm RemoveThis @moopenguin.org> wrote:

 > 1) The biggest adjustment I have in mind to reduce the power of the
 > portals by making it so that they periodically reset back up to their
 > initial cloud position. Note that if a portal is "parked" in a safe
 > spot it might reset back to the cloud alarmingly quickly.

That sure tips the scales in favor of the "move it to a pool of lava"
party. Having them reset is a fine idea and something I actually like,
but making it happen quicker is safe places just bones those of us that
want to use the things instead of be control freaks.

Michael<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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" that sense of daring adventure as illustrated in the story that Joe
wrote (in the CL manual)"

Ah, now come on! That was a ghostwriter!


-Alby

PS: Do you have kids? Maybe I put it this way: give everyone their own
portal, lol. *hugs*


--
Alby - Sylvan Healer

------------------
per aspera ad astra
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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