I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!!

On Sep 9, 2007, Gil Bates wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> i am yet another one of those annoying win->mac switchers that you all
> seem to hate. vista finally pushed me over to the "light side".
> anyhow...
>
> i'm 3 months into the transition and i've yet to find a way to control
> any program menu without a mouse. in windows you could press the ALT
> key to access the menu in ANY program, then move around with the arrow
> keys. responsible programmers even underlined the shortcuts for you.
>
> but on OSX it seems like you have to use the mouse to initiate the
> menu, then move around with the arrow keys. what do you do when you
> want to use a command that doesn't have a shortcut? and please don't
> say "create a shortcut dumbass". i've already gotten that wonderful
> piece of advice from quite a few forums.
>
> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in any
> program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't want
> to spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in case i
> might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since they seem
> to make up their own rules)
>
> cheers all! it's good to be aboard.
>
> Gil Bates
>

While I'm aware of the keyboard access the others have posted, one cannot
deny that Windows does enable you to leave your mouse alone for longer
periods of time. As a keyboard user, that has always been the one area that I
like most about Windows.
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-09 18:49:39 -0500, Gil Bates <gil_bates DeleteThis @hotmail.com> said:

> i am yet another one of those annoying win->mac switchers that you all
> seem to hate.

If you've gotten the impression Mac users hate other Mac users who have
switched to Mac from Windows, then you've gotten the wrong impression,
because it's simply not the case.

Welcome to the Mac community. We are glad to have you. : )

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JR
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

Gil Bates wrote:
>
> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in any
> program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't want to
> spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in case i
> might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since they seem
> to make up their own rules)
>
No matter how hard I've looked, I've not found a way to have the same
speed & efficiency of the Windows way of accessing menus the way Windows
does.

Sad, but true. I've just had to chalk it up to something that I've
given up in favor of everything else that I like better about OS X.
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-09 18:49:39 -0500, Gil Bates <gil_bates DeleteThis @hotmail.com> said:

> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in any
> program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't want
> to spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in case i
> might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since they seem
> to make up their own rules)

Yep. There is plenty of keyboard accessibility built into Mac OS X.

As others have said, the default shortcut Control-F1 turns on full
keyboard access to menus, and the default shortcut Control-F2 initiates
the selection. Use the arrow keys after that to navigate.

(There are also shortcuts to get to the Dock, active window, and other
user interface elements. Have a look at Apple menu > System Preferences
> Keyboard & Mouse > Keyboard Shortcuts for the full list of related
shortcuts.)

To switch between applications you can either use Expose (usually F9
through F11) or press Command-Tab.

To switch between windows in an application, you can either use Expose
or press Command-~ (~ is conveniently the key just above Tab on the
keyboard).

You can configure Mac OS X to allow you to select all user interface
elements in windows and dialog boxes as well. Apple menu > System
Preferences > Keyboard & Mouse > Keyboard Shortcuts has an option
called "Full keyboard access" at the bottom - select "All controls" to
enable that. Once it's enabled, you can use the Tab key to move between
buttons, text boxes, and so on in dialogs and windows, and use the
Space bar to select the highlighted element.

Keep asking questions, and enjoy! : )

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JR
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-09, Gil Bates <gil_bates.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> i am yet another one of those annoying win->mac switchers that you all
> seem to hate.

No it is only trolls we hate, if you are not a troll then welcome
aboard and we will do our utmost to make your Mac experience as
delightful as possible:-)

> i'm 3 months into the transition and i've yet to find a way to control
> any program menu without a mouse.

Unfortunately I don't know much about this but I would suggest
you start off by looking at:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/universalaccess/

If that doesn't help then I hope that one of the other csma regulars
will have something more to offer. I would have thought that apps
supplied with Mac OS X would keyboard controllable if you enable
full keyboard access as described in the above URL. As for third
party apps it would depend on whether the developer had followed
the "Developing for Accessibility" programming guidelines:

http://developer.apple.com/ue/accessibility/index.html

Hope this helps,

Ian

--
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http://www.zenatode.org.uk/ian/
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-09 21:26:12 -0500, Thom Rosario <thom.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> said:

> Gil Bates wrote:
>>
>> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in any
>> program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't want
>> to spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in case i
>> might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since they seem
>> to make up their own rules)
>>
> No matter how hard I've looked, I've not found a way to have the same
> speed & efficiency of the Windows way of accessing menus the way
> Windows does.
>
> Sad, but true. I've just had to chalk it up to something that I've
> given up in favor of everything else that I like better about OS X.

I've never found full keyboard access of menus in either Windows or Mac
OS X to be that fast or efficient. How exactly do you find Windows to
be faster or more efficient?

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JR
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On Sep 9, 2007, Jolly Roger wrote:
> You can configure Mac OS X to allow you to select all user interface
> elements in windows and dialog boxes as well. Apple menu > System
> Preferences > Keyboard & Mouse > Keyboard Shortcuts has an option
> called "Full keyboard access" at the bottom - select "All controls" to
> enable that. Once it's enabled, you can use the Tab key to move between
> buttons, text boxes, and so on in dialogs and windows, and use the
> Space bar to select the highlighted element.

It is important to note that this has a dependency on the developer. Some
apps don't do this, and indeed, some Apple dialogues don't honor it either.
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On Sep 9, 2007, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
> I've never found full keyboard access of menus in either Windows or Mac
> OS X to be that fast or efficient. How exactly do you find Windows to
> be faster or more efficient?

Not trying to answer for Gil, but I can tell you that in my case people who
watch me work are agape: They can't believe anyone can operate a system that
fast. It's just bangbangbang...done.
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-10 01:49:39 +0200, Gil Bates <gil_bates.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> said:

> Hi all,
>
> i am yet another one of those annoying win->mac switchers that you all
> seem to hate. vista finally pushed me over to the "light side".
> anyhow...
>
> i'm 3 months into the transition and i've yet to find a way to control
> any program menu without a mouse. in windows you could press the ALT
> key to access the menu in ANY program, then move around with the arrow
> keys. responsible programmers even underlined the shortcuts for you.
>
> but on OSX it seems like you have to use the mouse to initiate the
> menu, then move around with the arrow keys. what do you do when you
> want to use a command that doesn't have a shortcut? and please don't
> say "create a shortcut dumbass". i've already gotten that wonderful
> piece of advice from quite a few forums.
>
> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in any
> program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't want
> to spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in case i
> might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since they seem
> to make up their own rules)
>
> cheers all! it's good to be aboard.
>
> Gil Bates

thanks so much for the answer. i had seen that control panel many times
in my search, but to be absolutely honest, i thought it was broken. i
always get the little up arrow symbols for the Shift and Ctrl key mixed
up.

that's n00bs for you...

well i'm off to annoy my work mates with more "aww, you still use
windows?" talk :)

GB
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2007-09-09 21:26:12 -0500, Thom Rosario <thom.RemoveThis@nospam.com> said:
>
>> Gil Bates wrote:
>>>
>>> so my question is this. is there a way to get focus to the menu in
>>> any program to then be able to navigate with the arrow keys? i don't
>>> want to spend all summer creating shortcuts for every application in
>>> case i might need to use it once or twice. (dreamweaver aside. since
>>> they seem to make up their own rules)
>>>
>> No matter how hard I've looked, I've not found a way to have the same
>> speed & efficiency of the Windows way of accessing menus the way
>> Windows does.
>>
>> Sad, but true. I've just had to chalk it up to something that I've
>> given up in favor of everything else that I like better about OS X.
>
> I've never found full keyboard access of menus in either Windows or Mac
> OS X to be that fast or efficient. How exactly do you find Windows to be
> faster or more efficient?
>
In OS X, the keyboard shortcuts you're provided are set by the
developer, or by you if you muck around in the Keyboard pref pane. The
defaults for "Open", "Save" & "Quit" are easy enough to learn, and as
you get to know an application, you'll likely learn a lot more of them.

The problem, however, is that you eventually run out of key combos to
use if you start to customize your apps.

In Windows (and linux, for that matter), the entire menu bar is
accessible easily and systematically. I'm using Thunderbird right now,
so I have

File
Edit
View
Options
Tools
Window
Help

I can press <alt> + (usually) the first letter of each of those menu
items to get it to spring open. The real benefit here is that every
menu item in the newly-opened menu will have one of it's letters
underlined.

This approach _really shines_ as I get to know an app. Every time I pop
one of those windows open (all w/o removing my hands from the keyboard),
I get a visual reminder of the next step in the process because of the
underlined letters.

In one of the apps I used to use all the time, one of the menus looked
like this:

_F_ile
_R_eplication
_N_ew Replica
_R_eplicate
Replication _S_ettings
(etc)

Getting to the (example) commands was as easy as pressing:

<alt>+f r n
<alt>+f r r
<alt>+f r s

As familiarity grows, the speed at which you can select these menu items
increases significantly. It's a subtle difference, but one that I
sorely miss.

.... not enough to go back, mind you, but I miss it.
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

Gil Bates <gil_bates RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> i am yet another one of those annoying win->mac switchers that you all
> seem to hate.

Au contraire! You may have been reading posts here from someone who
calls himself Mark Conrad, but we love to welcome Windows converts.

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 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-10 07:50:48 -0500, Thom Rosario <thom.DeleteThis@nospam.com> said:

> linux, for that matter), the entire menu bar is accessible easily and
> systematically. I'm using Thunderbird right now, so I have
>
> File
> Edit
> View
> Options
> Tools
> Window
> Help
>
> I can press <alt> + (usually) the first letter of each of those menu
> items to get it to spring open. The real benefit here is that every
> menu item in the newly-opened menu

I agree it's kind of neat (although butt-ugly) that Windows underlines
the letters. But you do realize you can do the same thing in a similar
manner in Mac OS X, right? For instance if I am in the Finder, I can
type this sequence to clean up the selected icons:

Control-F2
V
Down Arrow
C
Space (or Enter/Return)

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 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!! 

On 2007-09-09 21:34:38 -0500, Jolly Roger <wbyylebtre.DeleteThis@cbobk.pbz> said:

> As others have said, the default shortcut Control-F1 turns on full
> keyboard access to menus, and the default shortcut Control-F2 initiates
> the selection. Use the arrow keys after that to navigate.

I neglected to mention that you can alternatively type the name of the
menu item you want to select rather than using the arrow keys.

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JR
 >> Stay informed about: I miss my Windows keyboard access!!!!! help!!